Multimedia Item

Transcript - ABC1 Insiders

Sunday 30th May 2010

Subject: Shadow minister for immigration Scott Morrison joins Insiders to discuss the Government's mining tax ads and Coalition's new asylum seekers policy.

BARRIE CASSIDY, PRESENTER:

And overnight another boat has been boarded with 53 asylum seekers and two crew on board. The vessel managed to make it all the way to Flying Cove at Christmas Island before it was spotted.

Our program guest this morning is the shadow minister for immigration, Scott Morrison.

But just before he joins us let's hear now from the Minister for Finance, Lindsay Tanner, who was questioned on Meet The Press this morning about the Government's advertising blitz against the mining companies.

(Excerpt from Meet the Press, Channel Ten):

LAURIE OAKES, PRESENTER:

Well, who said this minister? "The bloated government advertising programs and politicians electioneering entitlements are simply cynical raids on the Treasury coffers to ensure political survival."

LINDSAY TANNER, FINANCE MINISTER:

Well, I suspect you've probably found a quote of mine.

That’s an entirely legitimate description of John Howard's regime. In fact he spent over $250 million on government advertising in his last year in office. Now in today's dollars that's about $280 million.

In our first two years we only spent about $200 million so we have been way, way more restricted on this front than John Howard.

(End of excerpt)

BARRIE CASSIDY:

And we're joined now by the shadow minister for immigration, Scott Morrison. Good morning, welcome.

SCOTT MORRISON, SHADOW IMMIGRATION MINISTER:

Good morning, Barrie. Good to be with you.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

I think what Lindsay Tanner was saying there is that okay, guilty, but not as guilty as the previous mob.

SCOTT MORRISON:

What they're guilty of, Barrie, is just mass hypocrisy. This is a Government that set its standard when it was in opposition. They said they were going to be all different about this. They said they were going to have these new standards, these new guidelines.

And just like on so many issues where they've knowingly and willingly raised expectations, they've fallen significantly short.

They set the test. Now the test is applied to them and he wants to play around with maths and figures and fudging numbers with inflation and all the rest of it.

The bottom line is these guys have walked away yet again from another of these big moral principles that they outlined in opposition and are found to be completely wanting. I mean it's just basically betrayal.

People can sometimes put up with people not doing that great a job but when they're betrayed they get very angry.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Whether he adjusts for inflation or not though, there's no doubt they've still got a long way to go to match the record of the Howard government.

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, they have to be matched on their own benchmark, Barrie. That's the point here. They set the benchmark. It's rolled gold. We'd never walk away from, or breach these conditions.

Well, they got rid of the auditor-general. No, he was going to look a little bit too closely at that.

And now when these standards come up well, no, we've got a national emergency here. We've got these compelling circumstances. We've got to rush these ads out because national emergency these days equates to bad polling figures for Kevin Rudd.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

I wonder though whether the question from the public is that will any major political party ever take an ethical position on this and stick with it?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well again, the issue here is for Kevin. Kevin is the one who set the standard. He put it out there. He was the one who made a big moral issue out of this. And he's the one who's fallen from his own standard.

Whether it's the greatest moral challenge of our time with climate change or it's the greatest moral challenge of advertising he has fallen short from his own standard. He's let people believe something about him and now he's completely disappointed them yet again.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Well, what the Greens are putting up this week is a bill. They want to legislate Kevin Rudd's initial position. They want the auditor-general reinstated. Will you support that?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, I'll leave that to others to give a response to. But what we learned this week, Barrie, was that this advice that he was going to be allowed to go ahead with his advertising campaign was released on Monday or Tuesday. That's when he made the decision.

Now Senate Estimates were going over DoFA's statements and they were going over the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet a couple of days later.

So the decision was taken before estimates. They refused to put it up for scrutiny before estimates. And now we find that they hand it out there on Friday and then all of a sudden go off to decide to take the Japanese to court over whaling.

I mean it was a week of spin that would make you dizzy.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Yeah, sure. You've got strong views on what Kevin Rudd ought to do and I asked you a simple question: whether you would support the Greens' position. Will you?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, I'll leave that for Michael Ronaldson to respond to. They will make those calls in the Senate this week.

But in terms of what Kevin Rudd has done, look, I am responding to what he said he would do, Barrie, because he's the one who said it. He's the one who set the bar. And he's got to be judged on his own bar.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Okay, let's talk now about the asylum seekers policy. And will this policy differ in any way from that that operated under the Howard government?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, as we've said Barrie, we haven't indicated what countries we might be negotiating with or where they might be.

There are obviously a lot of lessons that were learned over that period of time which we actually implemented in Government in terms of how detention facilities were actually run.

And there are important lessons there about how you run these centres and that was an issue that was very relevant at the time.

But in general terms these were policies that were abolished by the Rudd Government. We've seen 129 boats turn up since then, almost 6,000 people. That is a product of those policies significantly and we're saying well, we will put back what Labor has abolished.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

And you said you won't, you haven't named the countries and isn't that because you're going to have great difficulty finding any country to take part in this?

SCOTT MORRISON:

No, it's for the reasons that Alexander Downer said in his statement. And that is we're in opposition. Last time we did this we were in government. We were in a position to talk to other countries.

It not only prejudices the discussions that we might have in government but it's also frankly unfair on other countries who, you know, rightly have to deal with the government of the day and the policies that are of the government of the day.

Now this Government chose not to go down this path when it was faced with this problem and as a result the problem has continued to get worse and worse.

We have, Barrie, more people arriving today by boat in 2010 - 61 boats this year - than at any other time. It is a record rate of arrival in this year.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

But isn't that because of enormous push factors?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well no. Apparently this year, according to the Government, that everything's settling down in Afghanistan and Sri Lanka. But this year more than any year we've had as many boats and more people arrive in 2010, in the first five months, than we had arrive all of last year which is when they said the troubles were there.

Now last year we had a 29 per cent increase in asylum applications in Australia. Around the world it was flat.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

You say it's not because of enormous push factors. I'm just quoting Malcolm Turnbull there. He gives an interview on Sunday Profile later on today on ABC Radio. And he said, "enormous" push factors, "gigantic" in fact. So you're going to have an interesting discussion with him in the party room when it's finally discussed there?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, the policies we announced on Thursday were completely within the announcement that Malcolm made last November. It was Malcolm that announced that we would have temporary protection visas. It was Malcolm that announced that no one would be processed onshore as the Rudd Government was proposing to do.

So these are the policies that we've always held, Barrie. We've held these policies for a long time. There's nothing terribly new about them. And our resolve to implement them I think it is on the record.

So it will be an interesting discussion and I'm expecting overwhelming support.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Yeah, he says in fact that he's looking forward to it. So you will take him on on that issue and on others?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, the push factors, Barrie, as we all know have been around forever. Push factors are not new sadly. There are 10.5 million refugees around the world today.

There were around about 12 million back in 1999 through to 2001 and when we faced the last surge. The number of asylum applications back in that time when we faced the last surge was over 50 per cent higher than it is today.

So look, push factors are always around. What hasn't always been around in the last two years is the fact that the Rudd Government has abolished the strong border protection policies they inherited. And that's what caused the change and that's why people are on boats.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Why didn't you and Tony Abbott take this to the party room before you announced it? Again, Malcolm Turnbull says that he was often criticised for not taking policies to the party room. But at least he took the climate change issue to the party room and gave everybody an opportunity. So why did you not do it this time?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, we had an extensive discussion on the back bench policy committee on this back in February, Barrie. I certainly remember it. It went for over an hour. And there were views canvassed there. And so no one was in any doubt about the views of a number of individuals.

And no one was in any doubt, Barrie, about the views of the vast overwhelming majority of the party room on this matter. This a matter that has been debated and talked about in our party room in government and opposition for more than 10 years. The policies that we announced sit entirely within the frame of things we've done in government.

And we took the decision prior to announcing it to talk to those specific individuals who we knew had had a long-standing view on this matter. We did have a long conversation with them, over half an hour, on these things.

And it was a good opportunity to discuss the issues where they had concerns and said openly - Tony and I said openly - we know that you've had these views for a long time, we respect that. Unlike in the Labor Party, these people weren't going to be locked up in a basement somewhere. They're free to speak their mind.

But our policy is different. Our view is different and that will be what we do in government.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

And when you say overwhelming the party supports your decision, how high would you put it?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Oh look, it's overwhelming, Barrie. It's overwhelming. Talk to my colleagues. I think you'd get the same view.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Just go back to the Pacific Solution though and in interview after interview with asylum seekers who have been through the process they talk about hopelessness and depression and even attempted suicides. Does that trouble you?

SCOTT MORRISON:

These are very hard issues, Barrie. And the most significant thing we need to do is stop the flow of boats.

Today there are around 384 children who are in detention or detention-like, sorry detention-like facilities because they're not, we took them out from behind formal detention, so they're not in those facilities. There are 384 there.

There were 21 when we left office. And the fact is when boats come there are children on boats. When boats come people are in detention. People are in this uncertainty. And so what you need to do is make sure that the detention centres aren't full and their people aren't coming.

I mean if this Government spent as much time worrying about the profits of people smugglers as they do about the mining tax then I think our border protection policies would be a lot stronger.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

But nevertheless you do plan to send them off to countries like Nauru and there have been experiences similar to what I've just described. And your rationale seems to be you punish these people - because surely you accept it's punishment - you punish them to deter others.

SCOTT MORRISON:

No I don't accept it's punishment, Barrie. I accept that it's processing them in a location offshore where their asylum claims are assessed in accordance with the UNHCR guidelines and a decision is made about whether they're a legitimate refugee or not.

If they are, they get to come to Australia on a temporary protection visa and they're provided with that protection.

Now you know we haven't said where we're going to put them, Barrie, for the reasons that I outlined before. But we shouldn't just assume that the way the detention centres and places will be run will be in any way that is inhumane and in any way that won't seek to do our level best to ensure people are treated properly, as they should be in detention.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Well for it to work I'm sure you would concede you'll need the cooperation of Indonesia. And yet just this week a foreign affairs spokesman quoted in The Australian said, "third country processing has not been well received in the region." How are you going to win their support?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, one of the things you've got to do to win I think broad regional support, Barrie, is show you're very serious about this issue. This Government has not been prepared, the Rudd Government, to take the sugar off the table as Yudhoyono calls it.

And our policies, our pull factors under our policies are creating a problem for people in the region and we need to do what we need to do on our side of the fence first to build trust.

Now, I haven't said and Tony has not said what countries we would seek to place these facilities in. And so whether, you know, the Indonesian government or any other government may express a view; when we're in government and have those discussions, if we're elected, then we'll have the opportunity to speak openly with them about our own policies and how these measures might work.

And at that time people can make their judgments about whether they are going to be effective and whether they'll by successful.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Well, Tony Abbott also said that in some circumstances you will turn back the boats. What circumstances would they be?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, one of the reasons we released this policy, Barrie, was to outline those circumstances and they are in the policy.

It's very clear that you do need for example the cooperation of the country to which you are returning those boats because there is an obligation under the UN convention that they will, on our part, that they would not then refouler them to a country from which they are claiming they are fleeing persecution. So you do need the regional cooperation.

This happens in a very limited set of circumstances. Obviously the vessel needs to be seaworthy and secured properly.

Now I'm not suggesting this is going to happen with every other boat. In fact it only happened to the best of my knowledge on four occasions. Senator Evans said it happened in seven occasions while we were in Government. So this is not the majority of cases. It's very specific and we've been very clear about what those circumstances are.

Kevin Rudd promised this before the last election, as you know - said what none of the circumstances were and then did nothing about it.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

But then you did say that the vessels need to be seaworthy. Now that just invites people smugglers to disable the vessels and that in turn puts lives at risk.

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, I also said they need to be secured as well, Barrie. So look, these are the assessments that are made at sea.

And where people are in a position where their vessel is not seaworthy then, as has happened more recently, they'll be put on board one of our vessels and in these cases, depending on where our offshore facility would be and which is closest, they will be taken to the facility. And that may well be to an offshore location.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

And just finally on that story in the Sydney papers today on the aged-care facilities. Is that something that the Opposition has been across?

SCOTT MORRISON:

Well, it's very disturbing. I mean, I read those reports this morning and it's something we should all be disturbed about, seeing people treated in this way.

And when you think about all the billions that have been spent and wasted, when you think about whether it's public housing or whether it's on school halls and all the rest of it, and aged care facilities remain in that standard after blowing so many billions, I think the Government has a lot to answer for as to why aged care got none of that attention when they were...

Maybe they didn't think there would be polling stations at aged care facilities and so they weren't prepared to spend those billions of stimulus funds on those projects.

But I think there is clearly some explaining to do and I think all Australians would want to see our senior Australians looked after well.

BARRIE CASSIDY:

Scott Morrison, thanks for your time this morning.

SCOTT MORRISON:

Thanks very much, Barrie.

View Website