Interview with Ben Fordham, 2GB
27 October 2021
BEN FORDHAM: Live from Parliament House, Canberra. Good morning to you, PM.
PRIME MINISTER: G'day Ben.
FORDHAM: Thank you for talking to us. I think we all want to support anything we can do to help the planet, net zero. The question is how and when and at what price. How much will net zero by 2050 cost the average voter in western Sydney?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the low emissions technology plan costs us $20 billion, investing in the technology, which is going to continue to change the world and which is going to get electricity prices down and keep powering our industries. And we've got to develop those new technologies, whether it's in hydrogen, ultra low cost solar, energy storage, at much more cheaper rates and an important one, soil, carbon measurement. We want to get that down to $3 per hectare. One of the reasons why we need to get the encouragement to improve those pastures is to ensure that you can measure these things at an affordable cost. So this is just a very practical plan, a very practical plan which says you don't have to punish Australians, you don't have to make Australians feel guilty about what their jobs are. They can keep doing their jobs. They don't have to face higher taxes or more regulation. We can get there with the way we're already getting there because our emissions are already down by 20 per cent and our economy's up by 45 per cent.
FORDHAM: PM, you're claiming that the average Australian will be $2,000 a year better off by 2050. But that's pie in the sky stuff. You haven't released the modelling. You don't know if these technologies are going to effectively replace coal and gas, or whether they will lead to an increase in the price of electricity. The UK is experiencing record electricity prices at the moment because of green levies. So how can you claim that Aussies will be better off?
PRIME MINISTER: Because we're not doing green levies. We're not doing taxes. We're not putting the mandates on people. We're not shutting down anything. We're not going to stop digging anything up. We're not going to stop planting anything. That's what other countries are doing. And that's not what you have to do to get to net zero by 2050. We've already got emissions down by 20 per cent without doing any of those things. And so I think there's two myths here, Ben. One is that you have to go and punish Australians and end rural and regional life to hit net zero by 2050. That's not true. It's also not true that if you go and keep going down this path, that you're going to end things the other way, they're the extreme positions, none of those are true. What is true is if you take this middle course, keep developing the technology and enable people to get on with their livelihoods, we will get there. This is achievable. I mean, I'm sure people said that to Bill Gates and to Steve Jobs as well. But you know, we didn't need a tax or a law to develop the iPhone or develop a COVID vaccine. They just got on with it.
FORDHAM: When you talk about the new technology, you're banking on Australia getting to net zero based on this new technology that at the moment doesn't exist and you're spending $20 billion doing it over the next decade and you're presuming that this will lead to a return of up to $100 billion? Yeah, that sounds like some mates of mine who go to the racetrack and they have wishful thinking, thinking, okay, I'll go there with 20 bucks and come back with 100.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they mustn't have bought any Apple shares or Microsoft shares either. I mean, technology has always solved this problem. We see it in our lives every single day. I'll tell you what I trust technology far more than I trust governments’ taxes and higher regulation.
FORDHAM: So if the technology doesn't work, then how do you get there? Do you get there by taxing people?
PRIME MINISTER: We will never do that. That is never going to be part of our plan. That's what's in our plan, that we will not do it with taxes. We will do it through technology investments.
FORDHAM: Do you get there by banning things that we currently don't?
PRIME MINISTER: No you don't. That's what our plan doesn't do. We don't think you have to do that. You can get there by doing the things that take technology costs down, which get them as part of your economy, which enables you to to move through what is going to be a challenging time and you come out in front. That's what this shows.
FORDHAM: Even though you're not banning coal, if you don't approve new ones or invest in current ones, I'm talking about coal fired power plants, they'll die a slow death, won't they? Because coal mines are busier than ever, we can't export enough to meet demand. At the moment, the price is through the roof. Do you reckon the chairman of Adani, who invested in Australia instead of other countries, would have the same confidence doing so today?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I do, because we're not shutting anybody down. And over time, and this is why we're building the gas fired power plant up in Kurri Kurri. That's why we're doing it because you need other fuels, which will continue to be part of the mix for many, many years to come. See we're not shutting anything down then. Us committing to net zero by 2050 does not take away one job. In fact, it adds jobs. It doesn't add one cent to a power price. It doesn't do any of those things. It ensures that our mining and agricultural industries continue to go forward. I mean, countries overseas, Ben, in Korea and Japan and China and other places, they're going to make a whole bunch of decisions over the next 30 years, and we'll have to respond to that. We can't control their decisions, but we're not going to go and punish Australia and shut Australia down just to keep some people overseas happy. I'm not going to do that.
FORDHAM: Just on that, when the UN warns Australia that we have to urgently cut coal by 2030, which is up to $50 billion worth of exports a year for Australia. Boris Johnson is praising you, saying that Scott Morrison made a difficult decision given Australia's reliance on coal and fossil fuels. So that sounds like he thinks that we're going to rapidly phase out coal.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're not doing that, and that's not our plan. I mean, what will happen across all sectors, I mean, technology changes, global economies change over time. But I'm not going to force any of that. I mean, the global economy will set many things in place, and that's why it's important, I think, for us to have this target because there's going to be hundreds of billions of dollars, Ben, invested in these clean energy technology supply chains and Australia can really benefit from that. Critical minerals, rare earths, the manufacturing opportunities that come from that and I'm not going to have Australia shut out from that. And that's what this plan also opens us up to. Because we know what's happening around the world, we can't pretend that's not happening. Australia not committing to net zero is not going to change any of that. I'm not just going to let it happen to Australia. We need a plan that can embrace that, can work with it, ensure we mitigate the negatives and achieve all the positives.
But the myth that's been exposed by this work says you don't have to tax people and regulate people and shut people down to get the right results on emissions. Australians want us to take action on climate change, but they're not going to sell their livelihoods for it. And our plan, which is in the middle, enables us to achieve that.
FORDHAM: Oh look, we, don't get me wrong. We love hearing that there are no new taxes and we're not going to put people out of work. But there's not much about nuclear energy. You're saying that you're giving a commitment to monitor the development of small nuclear reactors.
PRIME MINISTER: Yep.
FORDHAM: But, that's a lot different to building one. Your data says our uranium exports could grow from $700 million to $1.3 billion annually by 2050. This is big business. You've got 32 countries who have nuclear energy. They want our stuff. It's clean, it's efficient, but we won't touch it here. So why are we more interested in technologies that don't currently exist instead of going nuclear?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's a moratorium on nuclear in Australia at the moment and ...
FORDHAM: But why?
PRIME MINISTER: Our policy has always been that unless there's bipartisan support for that, all you'll end up achieving is one big further fight and get nothing done.
FORDHAM: But that suggests that you're scared of the Opposition and you're not willing to step up to the plate …
PRIME MINISTER: I'm just saying, if you want to move forward. We've got the technologies which can get us to net zero now. So clean hydrogen, ultra low cost solar, energy storage, low emission steel and aluminium, carbon capture and storage technologies …
FORDHAM: But just on nuclear. You've never been afraid of a fight on other issues. Why are you afraid of this fight? Because you always mention, and so does Angus Taylor, ‘oh well the Labor Party will run a scare campaign’.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what I'm interested in is getting the job done and not handing the Labor Party some big stick, which can distract everybody from what the job is we need to get done. The Labor Party is completely opposed to it. So if the Labor Party changes their mind on that, then that's something we can address at that point. But at this point, I'm not going to allow our plan to get distracted on what the Labor Party wants to run as some sort of big scare campaign at the next election. I think that would be pretty pointless.
FORDHAM: I should just let people know it’s 7:30, we're just going to continue through the start of the news here, and I'll pick up the sports news with Amy Meehan in just a moment. PM a few quick ones. China is responsible for 28 per cent of the world's emissions. They've got a thousand coal fired power stations, about 100 more under construction. They're not turning up to Glasgow, they've got no interest in slowing down. So isn't this just going to increase their wealth, their power?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is why we are so opposed to the idea of these taxes and regulation. The only way any of this is going to change around the world and not just in China, but in Indonesia, in Vietnam and India, and we're working quite closely with India, is if we can crack the technologies, which means that we can all keep our jobs and get emissions down. And that's where I think the world has to focus now. All these going off to summits and all the rest of it, what really is only going to matter is if you get the technology which India can use, Vietnam can use, Indonesia can use and indeed China.
FORDHAM: Ok, just on the summit, when you sit down and have a look at the menu in Glasgow, you're going to be offered either a beef burger or a mushroom burger. This is true and there will be advice on the menu that the beef has 16 times more carbon emissions than the mushroom. So do you want the mushroom or the beef?
PRIME MINISTER: I want the beef, and I hope it's Australian beef, too.
FORDHAM: Ok, just a couple of quick ones because we've got the sports news coming up. Can you confirm that from today, you won't need proof of an exemption to book a flight from November 1, going overseas if you're fully vaccinated?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I can. We signed that off last night. And so that's in place now, and over half a million Australians have already downloaded their international vaccine certificates. So that's great news. The national plan, opening up Australia is working. We now have a higher first dose vaccination rate in Australia than the United Kingdom.
FORDHAM: Ok, and I've only got 30 seconds. Any thought to including rapid antigen testing through Medicare?
PRIME MINISTER: Not at this stage, but what I do know is that I understand from Monday you'll be able to get it at the chemist. So that's great too.
FORDHAM: So we'll have to pay for it ourselves, no thought that we might get behind this from a federal government point of view to support people in undertaking those rapid antigen tests?
PRIME MINISTER: That's not our plan at the moment.
FORDHAM: Ok. All right. PM, I appreciate you coming on the line when are you taking off. Is it tomorrow or the next day?
PRIME MINISTER: Thursday night.
FORDHAM: We really appreciate you jumping on the line and we'll talk with you again soon.
PRIME MINISTER: [Inaudible].
FORDHAM: No worries. We'll talk to you when you get back and enjoy the beef. Don't be afraid.
PRIME MINISTER: I will. I'll have the burger.
FORDHAM: There you go, Prime Minister Scott Morrison.
