Interview with Chris Kenny, Sky News
14 April 2020
CHRIS KENNY: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Chris.
KENNY: When you go back six or eight weeks, when you looked at what might unfold in Australia because of the coronavirus, you must have been filled with apprehension at the very least. When you look at where we are at now from a public health point of view, you must be very, very pleased and relieved.
PRIME MINISTER: Australia has put itself in a good position to be able to deal with what is a global calamity. I mean, we go back to the decision we made when we put in the ban on foreigners coming to Australia from mainland China all those many weeks ago. We were one of the first, if not the first country to have that in place and that proved to be a very critical change. Many other countries didn't do that and sadly, and we've seen, you know, what has flowed in many of those countries around the world. And so, yes, we are in a stronger position than most and many, but we still have to chart our way out of this, having negotiated our way in with some good, strong measures to protect Australians and also to give a lifeline to our economy. But those lifelines are not infinite. I mean, they have a finite life and we are now working hard to chart our way out.
KENNY: What do you say to those who look at the number of deaths in Australia and, of course, the fact that we would normally have on a given day more than 400 people dying in this country, saying that is it is a very, very small additional death toll, that we are killing the economy, that it is time already to take the foot off some of these measures and free up the economy. Are they underestimating what this virus could do not just to the health of so many Australians but also to our health and hospital systems?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, of course they are, and it's a bit like when people say, well, if you haven't had any boats arrive in Australia, then why do you keep running a border protection regime? And of course, we've had many who have tried, but that's been an effective regime. Equally, you know, we spend billions and have for many, many years when it comes to protecting Australians from terrorists. And we've been able to thwart many terrorist attacks, 16. But, you know, that means you've got to keep your vigilance. This virus has the potential to do great damage to the health of Australians and their wellbeing and not just necessarily those in older age groups. As we've seen overseas, we've seen this move right through the community, and so it's very important that we remain very aware of the potential of where this pandemic can go in Australia and not become complacent because of our relative success. I mean, we don't want to end up like New York or like London or like in Spain or in Italy or any of these places. And the decisions and actions we've taken together as a country and the discipline and patience shown by Australians has meant that we've been able to avoid those horror scenarios which, you know, Australia is not immune to. I mean, we can sometimes have complacency in this country. We're optimistic people and that's great, but we also have to keep our sense of realism about the risk.
KENNY: Yeah, it’s so easy to look at, as you say, the UK or New York City and look at what the alternative is. I think people need to remind themselves of that. Nonetheless, I have been critical, as many have been, of state police forces a bit of overzealous policing of the social distancing rules. That’s not really your bailiwick, they’ll sort that out, but we have seen in Tasmania what can happen if people ignore the rules. The revelations we’ve heard today that medicos were involved in a dinner party that has led to a cluster of infections around the health system in northern Tasmania.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's being investigated, as the Premier has said, and it just is a reminder that we can't take these things for granted. I mean, yes, we've had a good couple of weeks, but that does not a virus beat. And that's why we have many more in front of us before we could even possibly contemplate the easing of restrictions. And as you say, the states and territories, they all have different enforcement regimes. They're different in Western Australia and South Australia to what they are in Victoria and New South Wales. But to be fair to Victoria and New South Wales, they have many more cases and a much larger population and a much bigger cultural change in the behaviours that we needed to see take place in those states. Now, I think the last few days over Easter have demonstrated that I think Australians have been getting the message and I thank them genuinely for the way that they are seeking to cooperate proactively with the measures that we've got. I believe that that will mean that that will enable us down the track to have, you know, a different type of regime in terms of how these things are enforced and I have no doubt that the states and territories will be considering that positively. I mean, there's got to be a reward for all of this great effort that's going in, and there will be. But we've got to make sure that's done at the right time.
KENNY: One of the real anomalies seems to be in schools, you and the Chief Medical Officer and the Deputy Chief Medical Officers have been arguing for a long while that the place for children at the moment should be in schools. Yet the larger states are going to an online model in the second term. Do you think that’s wise, you leave it up to them, or would you like to see kids back in schools as soon as possible?
PRIME MINISTER: We've been working to try and get a consistent approach and let's be clear about one thing. The health advice is very clear, and that is the children are not at risk by going to school. And what is at risk is teachers, particularly those in vulnerable groups, cohorts, ages, other vulnerable health issues being in the school environment and that's what needs to be addressed and that's why schools have moved to a mixture of online learning and in-class learning. Now, in places like South Australia, the school attendance rate is much higher than it is in, say, New South Wales and in Victoria, they're going back today on the model that was basically operating just before New South Wales schools went into the term break just last week. What is also important though, Chris, is the education outcomes for our kids. I've said it many times. This virus is going to take a lot of things from us. I do not want it to take a year of a child's education, precious years for these children. And you know, if online and distance learning was a better way of delivering education, then that's what we’d do all the time. We wouldn't have schools, we wouldn't have all of that infrastructure and all of these sorts of things. Of course, teaching in the classroom, teaching face to face, teaching in that environment with kids together is a positive environment for children to learn. And I think, you know, this has got to be a high priority, particularly given the health advice and the risk of children. We've got to get those issues right for the safety of teachers, that's fair enough. But ultimately, we need to get kids back into school and that's increasingly being recognised around the world. The French President has made similar comments today. But the health advice has been very consistent. Getting kids back into school will also free up, I think, more opportunities in our economy to get to more economic activity going. But in order to ease the sort of restrictions we've seen in place now, which have only been, frankly, a couple of weeks. To do that, we need a greater health capacity to be able to respond to these sorts of outbreaks and respond very effectively. We need a greater degree of tracing capability for contacts, and that can happen much more quickly than it does now, and a testing regime that is much more universal so we can get onto the outbreaks very quickly when they respond. Now, we have one of the best testing regimes in the world, but even that is not up to that scale yet, and so there's quite a bit more work to do before we can give ourselves the leave pass to be even contemplating easing those restrictions.
KENNY: When it comes to schools, what’s the problem, though? Is it the teacher’s unions dictating terms to the state government?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they’re discussions taking place between those unions and teachers themselves and the leadership of schools. It’s happening with independent schools, Catholic schools, as well as public schools. So, you know, it is a live debate. But I want to be clear what it's about and what it's not about. It's not about the health of kids. The medical advice has been completely consistent on that grounds, on that front. When it comes to the health and workplace environment of teachers, well, there are some legitimate issues there, - that have been raised and which need to be addressed and that's what the medical expert panel has been working with the National Cabinet and myself on and there'll be further discussions about that this week.
KENNY: One group who seems to be very keen to get back to business as usual are the NRL. What hope do you give of the Sharks being out there at the end of next month?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, if they do go back, I hope they score a few more points than they did in the first two rounds. They have put in some good performances, I give them great credit. They were both close games. But look, I like the ambition because I want Australians to have the ambition to get things back to where they were. We all want that. No one wants to keep these sorts of restrictions in place any longer than they have to be. But right now, they are absolutely necessary to protect the health and livelihoods and lives of Australians. And so they will remain in place so long as we believe that is absolutely essential. But it's good to have plans to get the way back to where we want to be. That's what we're working on as a National Cabinet. This Thursday we will be considering further plans about how we can chart that way back to get the economy operating at a much higher level than it is now so it can support people's incomes, which will reduce the need to rely on taxpayers more broadly through the income supports that we've put in place. I mean, that's what we have to achieve. We've bought six months through the JobKeeper program and the JobSeeker program and the many other things we've done with child care and private hospitals and a lot of these changes to actually get this way out charted. This is a temporary set of arrangements where a government is responding in a crisis to an emergency set of conditions and these are the responses that are necessary to keep businesses together. Because we know on the other side, if the businesses can be held together with their employees, then we will be able to respond more quickly on the other side. Growth will take off far quicker than it would otherwise. You won't have people languishing for as long in unemployment or businesses, but, you know, in receivership or being pursued by creditors or by landlords or things like this. Our plan has always been about preserving businesses as the centre of the economy, not the government at the centre of the economy. Businesses are the centre of our economy, and we want to ensure that they get through this intact in as much a form as that we can so they can lead the recovery, the economic recovery on the other side.
KENNY: Just a couple of things very briefly, the Chinese Embassy has hit back at criticism over China’s handling over the coronavirus, claims they were slow to tell the rest of the world what was going on. Is Beijing culpable for what has gone on here?
PRIME MINISTER: I haven’t engaged in a commentary on other country’s policies and how they handle it. This is a wretched problem and one that is really, really pushing all governments to their limits in terms of getting the right answer for their country. In Australia, I've been very focused on getting the right answer for Australia, not looking to carbon copy solutions or policies from other places. We've been getting it right for our country, our economy, our values, how we do things. The virus obviously started up in China and it was transmitted from there. That's just a simple statement of fact, but that is not implying any criticism. It's just a recognition of what has occurred. I mean, one of the very important things we did, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, was when we're able to lock off that travel from people coming from mainland China early and the work that was done, the patience and the isolation that was put in place by our Chinese-Australian community, which were our most at risk community back in early February, was fantastic. I mean, their actions, their self isolation, their support for each other, Chinese-Australians here in those early weeks of this outbreak has saved Australia from a far worse fate than the one we're experiencing now and I commend them.
KENNY: And most Australia, I think, have appreciated your leadership and to be fair the leadership of premiers, Labor and Liberal around the country, through your National Cabinet. It works. Getting the leaders together, making quick decisions. Can that stay in place forever, long after the virus has gone?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, I mean, its success to date, I think, commends itself. It's not really something we're turning our minds to at the moment. We're too focused on the decisions we've got to make every single week. But I think all of us feel it's been a very effective mechanism. The most effective we've seen the Federation, I think, ever operate as far as I can see, and that's been an important tool for the country to be able to do this. You look back at previous times of crisis, you look back, you know, during the Great Depression and what was happening back then with the Scullin Government and then what was able to be achieved in the Lyons Government. I mean, taking a step back into history, these sorts of things didn't exist. And, you know, we've seen in the past, you go back to the Spanish Flu back in Australia a century ago, it was the breakdown in how the states worked together that made that episode far worse than it otherwise had been. So was it an early lesson for us that we know we needed to ensure the Federation worked as a tight unit together. And I really do thank the other Premiers and Chief Ministers. I mean, everything is just checked at the door. We've all got jobs to do as leaders of governments, and that's to do the right thing by our people, and I hope that's what Australians are seeing. Because that's certainly what we're all doing our best to do.
KENNY: Just finally, Scott Morrison, you’ve suddenly ended up in a position where moreso, I would suggest, that any Australian outside of wartime. You’ve got enormous pressure on you, dealing with an enormous public health and economic issue. How are you bearing up? Where do you draw strength?
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for the question, I appreciate your concern. And can I also thank many Australians who have written and emailed and rung in and in and posted on social media asking about us. We're fine, our family is great. I draw great strength from my family and my faith. And for my colleagues, my ministers are doing an outstanding job. They really are. Whether it's Greg Hunt over in Health, who's making sure we're getting that equipment and working so well with the states. Josh Frydenberg leading our economic charge. Dan Tehan and the work he's done in Education and childcare. I'll go get in trouble for not making them all. Karen Andrews doing amazing work, repurposing manufacturing lines to produce PPE equipment. I mean, the team is working together and that's what sustains me. I've got a great team, whether it's the National Cabinet I’m working with or my own team, my own colleagues are out in their electorates supporting them. This is how we get through. It is Team Australia, it's been said, and I draw great strength from that and the Australian people.
KENNY: Prime Minister, thanks so much for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Chris.
CHRIS KENNY: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Chris.
KENNY: When you go back six or eight weeks, when you looked at what might unfold in Australia because of the coronavirus, you must have been filled with apprehension at the very least. When you look at where we are at now from a public health point of view, you must be very, very pleased and relieved.
PRIME MINISTER: Australia has put itself in a good position to be able to deal with what is a global calamity. I mean, we go back to the decision we made when we put in the ban on foreigners coming to Australia from mainland China all those many weeks ago. We were one of the first, if not the first country to have that in place and that proved to be a very critical change. Many other countries didn't do that and sadly, and we've seen, you know, what has flowed in many of those countries around the world. And so, yes, we are in a stronger position than most and many, but we still have to chart our way out of this, having negotiated our way in with some good, strong measures to protect Australians and also to give a lifeline to our economy. But those lifelines are not infinite. I mean, they have a finite life and we are now working hard to chart our way out.
KENNY: What do you say to those who look at the number of deaths in Australia and, of course, the fact that we would normally have on a given day more than 400 people dying in this country, saying that is it is a very, very small additional death toll, that we are killing the economy, that it is time already to take the foot off some of these measures and free up the economy. Are they underestimating what this virus could do not just to the health of so many Australians but also to our health and hospital systems?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, of course they are, and it's a bit like when people say, well, if you haven't had any boats arrive in Australia, then why do you keep running a border protection regime? And of course, we've had many who have tried, but that's been an effective regime. Equally, you know, we spend billions and have for many, many years when it comes to protecting Australians from terrorists. And we've been able to thwart many terrorist attacks, 16. But, you know, that means you've got to keep your vigilance. This virus has the potential to do great damage to the health of Australians and their wellbeing and not just necessarily those in older age groups. As we've seen overseas, we've seen this move right through the community, and so it's very important that we remain very aware of the potential of where this pandemic can go in Australia and not become complacent because of our relative success. I mean, we don't want to end up like New York or like London or like in Spain or in Italy or any of these places. And the decisions and actions we've taken together as a country and the discipline and patience shown by Australians has meant that we've been able to avoid those horror scenarios which, you know, Australia is not immune to. I mean, we can sometimes have complacency in this country. We're optimistic people and that's great, but we also have to keep our sense of realism about the risk.
KENNY: Yeah, it’s so easy to look at, as you say, the UK or New York City and look at what the alternative is. I think people need to remind themselves of that. Nonetheless, I have been critical, as many have been, of state police forces a bit of overzealous policing of the social distancing rules. That’s not really your bailiwick, they’ll sort that out, but we have seen in Tasmania what can happen if people ignore the rules. The revelations we’ve heard today that medicos were involved in a dinner party that has led to a cluster of infections around the health system in northern Tasmania.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's being investigated, as the Premier has said, and it just is a reminder that we can't take these things for granted. I mean, yes, we've had a good couple of weeks, but that does not a virus beat. And that's why we have many more in front of us before we could even possibly contemplate the easing of restrictions. And as you say, the states and territories, they all have different enforcement regimes. They're different in Western Australia and South Australia to what they are in Victoria and New South Wales. But to be fair to Victoria and New South Wales, they have many more cases and a much larger population and a much bigger cultural change in the behaviours that we needed to see take place in those states. Now, I think the last few days over Easter have demonstrated that I think Australians have been getting the message and I thank them genuinely for the way that they are seeking to cooperate proactively with the measures that we've got. I believe that that will mean that that will enable us down the track to have, you know, a different type of regime in terms of how these things are enforced and I have no doubt that the states and territories will be considering that positively. I mean, there's got to be a reward for all of this great effort that's going in, and there will be. But we've got to make sure that's done at the right time.
KENNY: One of the real anomalies seems to be in schools, you and the Chief Medical Officer and the Deputy Chief Medical Officers have been arguing for a long while that the place for children at the moment should be in schools. Yet the larger states are going to an online model in the second term. Do you think that’s wise, you leave it up to them, or would you like to see kids back in schools as soon as possible?
PRIME MINISTER: We've been working to try and get a consistent approach and let's be clear about one thing. The health advice is very clear, and that is the children are not at risk by going to school. And what is at risk is teachers, particularly those in vulnerable groups, cohorts, ages, other vulnerable health issues being in the school environment and that's what needs to be addressed and that's why schools have moved to a mixture of online learning and in-class learning. Now, in places like South Australia, the school attendance rate is much higher than it is in, say, New South Wales and in Victoria, they're going back today on the model that was basically operating just before New South Wales schools went into the term break just last week. What is also important though, Chris, is the education outcomes for our kids. I've said it many times. This virus is going to take a lot of things from us. I do not want it to take a year of a child's education, precious years for these children. And you know, if online and distance learning was a better way of delivering education, then that's what we’d do all the time. We wouldn't have schools, we wouldn't have all of that infrastructure and all of these sorts of things. Of course, teaching in the classroom, teaching face to face, teaching in that environment with kids together is a positive environment for children to learn. And I think, you know, this has got to be a high priority, particularly given the health advice and the risk of children. We've got to get those issues right for the safety of teachers, that's fair enough. But ultimately, we need to get kids back into school and that's increasingly being recognised around the world. The French President has made similar comments today. But the health advice has been very consistent. Getting kids back into school will also free up, I think, more opportunities in our economy to get to more economic activity going. But in order to ease the sort of restrictions we've seen in place now, which have only been, frankly, a couple of weeks. To do that, we need a greater health capacity to be able to respond to these sorts of outbreaks and respond very effectively. We need a greater degree of tracing capability for contacts, and that can happen much more quickly than it does now, and a testing regime that is much more universal so we can get onto the outbreaks very quickly when they respond. Now, we have one of the best testing regimes in the world, but even that is not up to that scale yet, and so there's quite a bit more work to do before we can give ourselves the leave pass to be even contemplating easing those restrictions.
KENNY: When it comes to schools, what’s the problem, though? Is it the teacher’s unions dictating terms to the state government?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they’re discussions taking place between those unions and teachers themselves and the leadership of schools. It’s happening with independent schools, Catholic schools, as well as public schools. So, you know, it is a live debate. But I want to be clear what it's about and what it's not about. It's not about the health of kids. The medical advice has been completely consistent on that grounds, on that front. When it comes to the health and workplace environment of teachers, well, there are some legitimate issues there, - that have been raised and which need to be addressed and that's what the medical expert panel has been working with the National Cabinet and myself on and there'll be further discussions about that this week.
KENNY: One group who seems to be very keen to get back to business as usual are the NRL. What hope do you give of the Sharks being out there at the end of next month?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, if they do go back, I hope they score a few more points than they did in the first two rounds. They have put in some good performances, I give them great credit. They were both close games. But look, I like the ambition because I want Australians to have the ambition to get things back to where they were. We all want that. No one wants to keep these sorts of restrictions in place any longer than they have to be. But right now, they are absolutely necessary to protect the health and livelihoods and lives of Australians. And so they will remain in place so long as we believe that is absolutely essential. But it's good to have plans to get the way back to where we want to be. That's what we're working on as a National Cabinet. This Thursday we will be considering further plans about how we can chart that way back to get the economy operating at a much higher level than it is now so it can support people's incomes, which will reduce the need to rely on taxpayers more broadly through the income supports that we've put in place. I mean, that's what we have to achieve. We've bought six months through the JobKeeper program and the JobSeeker program and the many other things we've done with child care and private hospitals and a lot of these changes to actually get this way out charted. This is a temporary set of arrangements where a government is responding in a crisis to an emergency set of conditions and these are the responses that are necessary to keep businesses together. Because we know on the other side, if the businesses can be held together with their employees, then we will be able to respond more quickly on the other side. Growth will take off far quicker than it would otherwise. You won't have people languishing for as long in unemployment or businesses, but, you know, in receivership or being pursued by creditors or by landlords or things like this. Our plan has always been about preserving businesses as the centre of the economy, not the government at the centre of the economy. Businesses are the centre of our economy, and we want to ensure that they get through this intact in as much a form as that we can so they can lead the recovery, the economic recovery on the other side.
KENNY: Just a couple of things very briefly, the Chinese Embassy has hit back at criticism over China’s handling over the coronavirus, claims they were slow to tell the rest of the world what was going on. Is Beijing culpable for what has gone on here?
PRIME MINISTER: I haven’t engaged in a commentary on other country’s policies and how they handle it. This is a wretched problem and one that is really, really pushing all governments to their limits in terms of getting the right answer for their country. In Australia, I've been very focused on getting the right answer for Australia, not looking to carbon copy solutions or policies from other places. We've been getting it right for our country, our economy, our values, how we do things. The virus obviously started up in China and it was transmitted from there. That's just a simple statement of fact, but that is not implying any criticism. It's just a recognition of what has occurred. I mean, one of the very important things we did, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, was when we're able to lock off that travel from people coming from mainland China early and the work that was done, the patience and the isolation that was put in place by our Chinese-Australian community, which were our most at risk community back in early February, was fantastic. I mean, their actions, their self isolation, their support for each other, Chinese-Australians here in those early weeks of this outbreak has saved Australia from a far worse fate than the one we're experiencing now and I commend them.
KENNY: And most Australia, I think, have appreciated your leadership and to be fair the leadership of premiers, Labor and Liberal around the country, through your National Cabinet. It works. Getting the leaders together, making quick decisions. Can that stay in place forever, long after the virus has gone?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, I mean, its success to date, I think, commends itself. It's not really something we're turning our minds to at the moment. We're too focused on the decisions we've got to make every single week. But I think all of us feel it's been a very effective mechanism. The most effective we've seen the Federation, I think, ever operate as far as I can see, and that's been an important tool for the country to be able to do this. You look back at previous times of crisis, you look back, you know, during the Great Depression and what was happening back then with the Scullin Government and then what was able to be achieved in the Lyons Government. I mean, taking a step back into history, these sorts of things didn't exist. And, you know, we've seen in the past, you go back to the Spanish Flu back in Australia a century ago, it was the breakdown in how the states worked together that made that episode far worse than it otherwise had been. So was it an early lesson for us that we know we needed to ensure the Federation worked as a tight unit together. And I really do thank the other Premiers and Chief Ministers. I mean, everything is just checked at the door. We've all got jobs to do as leaders of governments, and that's to do the right thing by our people, and I hope that's what Australians are seeing. Because that's certainly what we're all doing our best to do.
KENNY: Just finally, Scott Morrison, you’ve suddenly ended up in a position where moreso, I would suggest, that any Australian outside of wartime. You’ve got enormous pressure on you, dealing with an enormous public health and economic issue. How are you bearing up? Where do you draw strength?
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for the question, I appreciate your concern. And can I also thank many Australians who have written and emailed and rung in and in and posted on social media asking about us. We're fine, our family is great. I draw great strength from my family and my faith. And for my colleagues, my ministers are doing an outstanding job. They really are. Whether it's Greg Hunt over in Health, who's making sure we're getting that equipment and working so well with the states. Josh Frydenberg leading our economic charge. Dan Tehan and the work he's done in Education and childcare. I'll go get in trouble for not making them all. Karen Andrews doing amazing work, repurposing manufacturing lines to produce PPE equipment. I mean, the team is working together and that's what sustains me. I've got a great team, whether it's the National Cabinet I’m working with or my own team, my own colleagues are out in their electorates supporting them. This is how we get through. It is Team Australia, it's been said, and I draw great strength from that and the Australian people.
KENNY: Prime Minister, thanks so much for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Chris.
