Interview with Jon Faine, ABC Melbourne
28 September 2018
JON FAINE: Scott Morrison good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER: G’day Jon.
FAINE: What’s going to happen when I infuriate you in this interview today? What are you going to do?
[Laughter]
PRIME MINISTER: What I always do Jon, I’ll argue the toss with you mate.
FAINE: Why is it thought in some circles that the appropriate thing to do when ABC presenters infuriate politicians is to go through back channels to try and get them fired?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I don’t think… no one has done that, Jon.
FAINE: Well it would seem from documents as well as conversations people are having, interviews people are giving and information that’s being leaked that that’s exactly what’s been happening.
PRIME MINISTER: No Jon I’m sorry, no politician to my knowledge or anyone else, the former Prime Minister, me or anyone else, has asked for anyone to be fired.
FAINE: They haven’t asked for anyone to be fired, they’ve said, “Can you shoot him? Can you get rid of them?”
PRIME MINISTER: No no they didn’t say that either John.
FAINE: Well that’s the evidence that’s emerged.
PRIME MINISTER: No it’s not the evidence. That’s the allegation that a politician has said that. The politician hasn’t said that, the former Chairman is reported to have said those things but he has said himself that that wasn’t coming in terms of what should happen to staff. I mean, politicians have every right, Jon, to say if they think the journalist got it wrong… you and I disagree all the time and I call you out when I think you’ve got it wrong and you call me out when you think I’ve got it wrong. I haven’t got a problem with that. I mean, on many occasions in the past I’ve taken issue with what the ABC have done, I’ve raised it through the appropriate channels and on quite a few occasions that ABC have had to apologise.
FAINE: And on some occasions, it turns out we haven’t got anything wrong and let the process be as transparent and as fair and as independent as ever. At the moment...
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah that’s the process. That’s the way I’ve always done it.
FAINE: Good, and you’re committed to that?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah of course I am, that’s how it should be. But we are allowed to say when we think they get it wrong and you know the ABC don’t always apologise when they do get it wrong by the way. You know, that’s for them, you’re an independent organisation, that’s how it should be. You’re not perfect.
FAINE: You have a number of reviews into the ABC being conducted as we speak. One of them is called the Efficiency Review. At the moment I can’t help notice that there’s no Managing Director of the ABC, there’s no Managing Director of the SBS and there’s a vacancy for the new Chair of the board of the ABC. Are you tempted to merge them as part of this efficiency review?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I’m going to wait for the results of the review to come back Jon. I mean, those sorts of ideas have been floated before but I… look, I will wait to see what the Review says. I think that’s the fair and sensible thing to do.
FAINE: Are you tempted?
PRIME MINISTER: It’s not about whether I’m tempted or not, it’s about what the evidence is and what the report says. So I’ll do it on an evidence base.
FAINE: And what, your personal views will have nothing to do with it? It will be entirely dependent on what’s recommended by the Report?
PRIME MINISTER: We’ll discuss it with our colleagues, that’s what Cabinets do. We receive a report, we’ll consider the report but no, I don’t come into it with any sort of set view on this Jon. I really don’t.
FAINE: Do you concede that the ABC board has become politicised in the last few years?
PRIME MINISTER: Well who is suggesting that?
FAINE: Various columnists, all sorts of commentary about it which is why I’m asking you if you think it’s true?
PRIME MINISTER: I don’t get into gossip. I mean, I’m not going to get into all that. We make appointments to the board, I expect them to do a job and if they don’t do a job they should go.
FAINE: But the ABC board shouldn’t be somewhere where mates get put to basically represent individual views of politicians?
PRIME MINISTER: I think that’s a pretty cynical observation Jon, that’s your view it’s not mine.
FAINE: No no no, I’m asking if we can just affirm that that would be wrong, because it’s fairly clearly not what the board of the ABC is for.
PRIME MINISTER: I think people make some pretty subjective assessments of these things and they’re entitled to make them. I mean, people commentating on people appointed to various board or whatever, they’re entitled to their subjective assessments. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
FAINE: Have you got anyone in mind to be the next Chair of the board of the ABC?
PRIME MINISTER: No, there’s a process for that as you know and I’ll let that process follow and we’ll be making a recommendation later in the day for someone to step up into the position of Executive Chair which would mean that they would then become the Acting Chair until these issues are resolved. That’s the proper process and I’ll be following it.
FAINE: I understand Vanessa Guthrie, an existing director, is the red-hot favourite there. But can I suggest to you, you’ve got two ideal candidates for the position of permanent Chair of the board. Melbourne University Vice-Chancellor Glyn Davis has finished up this week, he did his PHD on the ABC and political independence. He’s an excellent administrator, has managed a very large and complex organisation, has a track record of independence and intellectual rigour.
PRIME MINISTER: Well I’m sure there’ll be lots of good nominations made Jon, I hear you’re finishing up next year, maybe you want to throw your hat in the ring.
[Laughter]
FAINE: No I would be eminently unqualified for the position. Sydney technology and media lawyer Danny Gilbert’s name is being mentioned as well.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah there’s lots of names being put up and there’s a process to consider them, Jon, and that’s what we’ll do.
FAINE: Would the ABC have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting $500 million out of your Government to convert it from being the ABC, the broadcasting corporation, to the digital corporation, the ADC as the former board Chair wanted to do?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, those sorts of things would be dealt with through a budget process, not in an interview, and you know, we consider proposals from time to time. But look, that’s something we deal with in budgets and that’s not something I’m looking at right now.
FAINE: Do you think it’s a priority for your Government to give the ABC half a billion dollars for a digital transformation project?
PRIME MINISTER: It’s a priority for our Government to deal with the drought, to get electricity prices down, to keep the economy strong, keep Australians safe and to bring Australians and keep them together. They’re my priorities.
FAINE: So half a billion dollars to the ABC is a fair way down that list, in fact you didn’t even mention it.
PRIME MINISTER: Well no, we fund the ABC. I want them to do a good job, I want them to do it in an independent and unbiased way. That’s what taxpayers pay for and that’s what I expect the board to deliver.
FAINE: It was a Malcolm Turnbull-Justin Milne pie in the sky project was it not, Jetstream?
PRIME MINISTER: Well look Jon I’m just not going to get drawn on it, it’s just not something that I’m focusing much attention on at the moment. I’ve told you what I’m focusing on and frankly, the biggest issue for me at the moment and we’re doing a lot of work on it has been the drought. We’ve got the aged care inquiry which I’m finalising the terms of reference for and looking to appoint some commissioners to that, we’ve got the Royal Commission into the banking and financial industry coming out today, so there’s no shortage of very important issues for us to deal with. And as interesting as the ABC is...
FAINE: I assure you we don’t want to be.
[Laughter]
PRIME MINISTER: No look, I was looking at the front pages of the Melbourne papers this morning and I think the Herald Sun has got it right. Most people in Melbourne today are more interested in the AFL Grand Final than the ABC. I think The Age pulled the wrong rein there.
FAINE: No we’re on page two I might say, but you might want to have a look at that when you get here. Speaking of the aged care, I think we just killed off Jetstream if we read between the lines.
[Laughter]
So the aged care Royal Commission, how close are you to announcing the terms of reference?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, there’s a little bit more distance to travel on that. We’re doing some more consultation but I want to do it soon but I also want to make sure we get it right. And you know, appointing the commissioners as well is a key part of that. So we’ve been working fastidiously through that ever since I made that announcement last Sunday week, so I think we’re making a lot of progress and I really want to thank Australians for the way they’ve responded and the feedback they’ve been providing.
FAINE: Commissioners plural, you just told us. That’s important. Given how many reports, inquiries, investigations and so on have been done even in recent times on the same topic, there’s not a lot new that’s come out it’s just all being put into an orderly fashion.
PRIME MINISTER: Well that sometimes is what happens with Royal Commissions. I think a bit of that is what we’ve seen with the banking and finance Royal Commission, although there has been some new things there and I have no doubt there will be new things that come out of an aged care Royal Commission which deals as you know not only with residential aged care but in-home care places as well as young Australians living in an aged care setting. So look, I think there will be a lot of bruising information. I know Jon a lot of people have called into your program over a long time raising terrible, terrible stories. So look, I think this is going to be tough.
FAINE: Speaking of Royal Commissions, the interim report by former High Court Judge Hayne into financial services, banks, insurance and the like, the Royal Commission that your party didn’t really want to call, hands down its interim report today. You can’t undertake to implement recommendations until you’ve seen them but it would a fairly big call not to implement recommendations from a Royal Commission that’s been so powerful in its findings.
PRIME MINISTER: We’ll see what the report says today, it’ll come out today, we’ll release it today as I said I would and then we’ll take the next step then I think Jon. But I think Commissioner Hayne has done an outstanding job, I really do. I think he’s got through the work very, very assiduously but also very sensitively and he’s been very focused on making a practical contribution I think out of this and I’m sure he’ll make one and that’ll give us a very good set of recommendations to work with.
FAINE: Last time I spoke to you I asked if would extend the Royal Commission so it could have more time and you said that he had not asked for an extension. Is that still the case, he hasn’t asked for an extension?
PRIME MINISTER: No he hasn’t.
FAINE: He thinks he can get everything done in this quick, once over lightly quick hit?
PRIME MINISTER: No I wouldn’t describe it like that and I don’t think Commissioner Hayne would describe it like that. I don’t think he is giving it a once over quick hit Jon, I think he’s been an outstanding commissioner who has applied what is an amazing intellect to this and an application which I think has given absolute justice to the seriousness of the issues and if he asks for more time, he’ll get it.
FAINE: The gossip in legal circles is that he took the job on the basis it wouldn’t blow out.
PRIME MINISTER: Well he took the job on the basis that he would do a great job and he’d follow the terms of reference.
FAINE: We will see, and today will be an important day. On school funding, I see that your Government is determined to try and get some sort of a deal here but the states are playing hard to get. What’s plan B if they just say no?
PRIME MINISTER: The money will be spent on the schools that we’ve committed. That’s what… we’re growing our state school funding by over six per cent and funding for non-state schools with less than six per cent out to about 2023. We’ve made our commitments to support all schools. There's more money going into all schools, and we’re both preserving choice, we’re making sure the needs-based formula works right across the board and what we had from the Chaney Review was I think a very clear recommendation which said you had to look at the individual circumstances of parents in non-state schools and that’s exactly what we’re doing. So look, I think it’s an improved arrangement than the one we had before. It addresses some weaknesses that were there and I think that’s good.
FAINE: It may be improved but it may not be one that everybody accepts. What’s plan B?
PRIME MINISTER: We’ll spend the money. That’s the plan, and we’ll spend the money on kids’ education. I’m not going to get caught up in the usual state politics and the argy bargy of this, I’m just going make sure we spend the money on kids’ schools.
FAINE: There was a bit of argy bargy earlier in the week about the idea of not Australia Day but another separate day to recognise the contribution indigenous Australians make to Australia and have in the past. I think in the past, well let’s have a listen to how you described critics of Australia Day:
PRIME MINISTER – RECORDING: Well I just don’t know why people have to always bring Australia down and I don’t think engaging in this sort of indulgent self-loathing actually makes our country stronger. I mean, I want to bring Australians together around this day. That’s the date that the ships turned up.
FAINE: What’s the indulgent self-loathing you’re referring to in that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well every time… I mean there are some people who want to change the date who I think do so out of a real genuine empathy for indigenous Australians and I think they have responded well to my suggestion that we also have an opportunity, not Australia Day, but another day not the same as Australia Day to recognise the contribution of our Indigenous people, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. But there are others, you know, who just go out there and just want to take a sledge on Australia Day all the time and promote themselves and engage in this “Australia is the worst country on earth.” Well that’s just… I don’t buy into it. I think Australians are just sick of it and I think these guys should pull their heads in.
FAINE: To channel my inner Maggie Thatcher, who are these people?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I thought the Byron Bay Mayor was doing a pretty good job of it. I thought Richard Di Natale was doing a pretty good job of it and I think they should pull their heads in. I mean, we can celebrate Australia Day. We talked about this issue once before Jon. On the 29th of April every year, what we have down in my community is a meeting of two cultures ceremony. That’s the day that Sir James Cook turned up at Kurnell, and that is a respectful, positive, celebration that we have which brings together Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. We’ve been doing it for years. It’s quite possible to do that you know. We don’t have to have a fight about it, you can bring people together. That’s all I’m saying. And everyone wants to go and have a big blue about this. You don’t have to, we can accommodate everybody.
FAINE: How does Scott Morrison want to engage with Indigenous Australia? Do you want to outsource it to Tony Abbott or do some of it yourself?
PRIME MINISTER: Jon you’re being very cynical today mate. I mean Tony Abbott has showed a passion for Indigenous children’s education throughout his entire public life. So yeah, I’ve asked Tony to go and help make sure we get good policy there to get Indigenous kids into school. I mean what’s the problem with that mate? I’ve got an Indigenous Minister in Nigel Scullion who is working on broader indigenous issues, now I’ve got an Education Minister that’s focusing on this. There is no lack of effort. And if I got someone in my team, whether it is Tony who has a passion and a knowledge of these things, who goes and spends a week of his own time, has for years, up working with teachers aides in Indigenous areas. Well why wouldn’t I ask him to do something?
FAINE: Are you interested in visiting remote communities yourself? Do you want to engage with communities directly?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I do, and I’ll be there with Tony, I’ll be there with Nige. I’ve been there myself in previous portfolios and I’ve learned a lot from doing that. I am the sort of person that likes to roll my sleeves up, get there and understand it firsthand. And that’s what I’ve always done in all my portfolios, Jon, so absolutely I will and I look forward to doing that.
FAINE: The Labor Party are campaigning heavily on promising to bring in an anti-corruption body. Are you interested?
PRIME MINISTER: The Attorney General is currently looking at some alternative ways of addressing these matters and I will keep doing that work.
FAINE: The bottom line of the Budget has significantly improved and your Treasurer Josh Frydenberg was front and centre stage, trumpeting that and quite rightly so just earlier this week. But has some of the reduced welfare expenditure come at the cost of creating homelessness and poverty by being too tough on welfare recipients?
PRIME MINISTER: No I don’t believe so because we’ve had record jobs growth. The reason the welfare spending has come down Jon is because people have got into jobs and we’ve tightened up on the abuse of the system. So we’ve done the right thing by taxpayers, we’ve done the right thing by people who aren’t in work by getting them into work. The best form of welfare is a job, I’ve always believed that and that’s what our Government has been delivering for five years.
FAINE: Some people can’t get a job and we’ve heard stories this week on this radio program from people who have been rendered homeless because of the now unbelievably difficult regime introduced by Centrelink and compliance for many people is just too hard.
PRIME MINISTER: Well I’ve increased funding for homelessness. I made homelessness funding through the National Partnership Agreement on homelessness permanent. It used to be a year to year proposition and I made that permanent as Treasurer in my last Budget and we’re very committed to homelessness. we’ve set up the National Housing Financial Investment Corporation to provide low-cost finance to affordable housing developments through community housing associations. We’ve provided tax concessions for investment in affordable housing and social housing projects. So Jon we have done quite a lot on this area and I want to see us continue to do more and work with the states and territories but particularly the sector to ensure that the money that is spent on homelessness meets the mark. But the truth is, the number of unemployed people in Australia since the last election has gone down, not up.
FAINE: Which is only ever a good thing. Now just finally, given that you’re on your way to Melbourne for the AFL Grand Final...
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah and I don’t know much about this Jon, so...
[Laughter]
FAINE: No no, I’m not asking you who played on the wing for whatever team five years ago, don’t worry. But before you declared that you were barracking for the West Coast, and everyone should support anyone but Victoria, did you check that with Matthew Guy the State Opposition Leader and your Liberal Colleague?
[Laughter]
PRIME MINISTER: No I didn’t, I just...
FAINE: It may have implications for the state election in November.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh I think that’s rubbish Jon.
[Laughter]
Everyone who goes to the footy sort of, you know, wants to watch the game and you know, have a bit of skin in the game. And look, I’ve been going for Western Australia for a long, long time and I have a great affection for them and I’ve met some of the guys over there. So look, I wish them well but I haven’t got a team in the AFL, I’m not about to get one. I mean Robert Menzies didn’t have an NRL team...
FAINE: Well the NRL didn’t exist when Menzies was Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Well we actually were playing rugby league back then.
FAINE: You were playing rugby league, but the NRL, it wasn’t a national code then.
PRIME MINISTER: Well there wasn't an AFL back in Menzies’ time...
FAINE: No, he had a VFL team, he watched Carlton every weekend.
PRIME MINISTER: And good for him, I go and watch the Sharks every week, so look, every time they’re playing at home as well I’ll be there.
FAINE: Yeah look I was just wondering, you declaration that people should barrack for anyone but Victoria in both the rugby league and the AFL meant that you’d given up on Victoria.
PRIME MINISTER: Maybe if it wasn’t Collingwood.
[Laughter]
Maybe if it was one of the others, but…
FAINE: At the risk triggering another complaint to the ABC Managing Director, I’m actually on a unity ticket on this one Scott Morrison, so there you go.
[Laughter]
PRIME MINISTER: Maybe not the only thing Jon, who knows.
FAINE: Who knows indeed, it’s one of the great mysteries. Thank you indeed for your time, look forward to seeing you in the studio and I’m sure our listeners would have many questions if you could come and take some talkback.
PRIME MINISTER: Look forward to it, good on you Jon.
