Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News
24 April 2020
KIERAN GILBERT: Prime Minister, thank you for your time. You must be feeling a lot better today than you were after the last or the first National Cabinet six weeks ago. We're in a much better situation as a nation, aren't we?
PRIME MINISTER: We are. And we're ahead of where we thought we would be. I think that's very pleasing. And we've got Australians to thank for that. We took some very quick decisions back then, well informed by the medical expert panel and we've acted on those and we've been getting the results we were hoping to get. But now we're in another phase of this and it will present its own challenges. Having got through the first wave I talked about today, which was that export of the virus from China all around the world and we did very well there. The second wave was all the Australians coming home from all of those places where they saw much higher levels of infection. And now we're dealing with the risk of community outbreaks and we're on top of that. But we can't be complacent.
GILBERT: Can we eliminate this thing, can we get rid of it entirely?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's possible. And the medical experts say the same thing, and that's possible even from what we're doing. But this whole idea of if you pursue an eradication strategy, as it's called, well, that is basically everyone getting in under the doona and not not getting out. And that you can't run a country like that.
GILBERT: Is it your overriding thought now that you just want to avoid a misstep, a calamity like we have seen internationally? You spoke about the numbers this week and it's jolting when you hear some of the death rates in Sweden, in Belgium, the Netherlands. Is that your overriding thought now to avoid any misstep, that sense in that direction?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, at two levels, you're right. I mean, that the death rate in France is 100 times higher per million population than in Australia. I mean, in the UK, just less than that. They are horrifying figures. And so what that says is that this virus has a rate of transmission that is quite frightening. If it gets going, it's very hard to stop and without quite extreme measures. And so that's one level of concern that I and then the rest of the National Cabinet have. The other one is that one on the road back, we just want to stay on the right track. You don't want to stop and go, stop and go. That has a real negative economic consequence to it as well. So, you know, building up iteratively, step by step by step, carefully pursued. And one of the interesting things today is we sort of had this discussion that, you know, obviously the Northern Territory in Western Australian and South Australia, well, things are going incredibly well. And I can understand why people living in those parts of the country are going to well, why can't we just go completely back to normal now? And they're asking those questions. But other parts of the country, I mean, what's happened to Tasmania? A very quick outbreak which had really taken quite a bit of effort to get under control.
GILBERT: So we're in this period of consolidation now, almost in a holding pattern really, for three weeks. Are you sure this is the right way to go or can we start taking some of those measures off faster? Because as you know better than anyone, I mean, you've been reporting these statistics to the Australian people, how many people who've lost their jobs. It's hurting.
PRIME MINISTER: It is hurting and it is hurting hard. And we want to prevent that going forward, too. And, look, we already are seeing those changes, though. I mean, yes, there is formally another three weeks before we pencilled in that decision on what we call the baseline measures. But already states are moving on a range of things which were well beyond the baselines. And, you know, if there's an opportunity to move a day earlier, then I can assure you will take it. But what we don't want to do is get that decision wrong and then several weeks from now, having to lock everything back down much harder. I mean, the cost of restarting your business, getting your people back and getting the kids back to school, you know, we've already gone through that traumatic change of going into that phase we're in now. If you had to open up and shut, open up and shut, well, that has a cost to it, which I think would leave us in a far worse position.
GILBERT: And in terms of the app, the tracing app, because this is what you describe as the industrial sort of tracing capacity. When are we going to see it? And I guess, what's your message to people who are watching us this afternoon saying, I want to do my bit, I want to do my bit for our health as a nation to deal with this pandemic. But I'm worried about the privacy implications. What do you say to reassure them?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, first, don't be. I mean, what we've done here has been very careful. This has one job, you know, has got one job. It's got one job and that is to help that health officer sitting in that office in Sydney or Melbourne or wherever they happen to be and what happens if... let's say you contract coronavirus. What would normally happen is the health officer would speak to you and say, well, Kieran, who were you in contact with over this period of time? This is information you would be volunteering up on the best of your recollection. But none of us are perfect and none of us are keeping a diary of every single movement that we're making. Now what this simply does is helps you in that situation because you give the authority for those contacts that you would have had during that precise period to be downloaded to that health officer. They’re the only people who are going to see it. So, you know, I hear a lot of people say and rightly, you know, I want to thank those health officers, the people on the front line, those working in the supermarkets, those working in aged care facilities. What can I do to help them? Download the app. Download the app. We’ve put the protections in place and you download that app, you're making yourself safer, you’re keeping your family safer, you’re making your community safer and it means we can get back to where we want to be.
GILBERT: And do you think we'll get to that 40 per cent benchmark, which was the figure that we heard earlier in the piece as the key number to make this thing worthwhile, this app. Will we get to that 40 per cent?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't know, that's up to Australians. That's a question only Australians can answer. The right answer to that question is to get it as high as possible and so we're asking Australians, will you support that national effort? It's a pretty straightforward question. And I will be, I'll be downloading it and I encourage everyone else to. And we've put the protections in place. We've actually listened very carefully. We just didn't one day turn up and say, well, here's the app. We said we were going to have one. And then we've been in this process now over several weeks, listening carefully to what people's concerns about it would be. And we've been addressing it. And so what we will be able to launch very soon is to have this tool, and that's all it is. It's a tool, a tool to help health workers do their job to keep you safe.
GILBERT: We've seen the data on kids, particularly school aged kids. It's minuscule, the impact on them. It frustrates you, doesn't it, that the schools aren't all open?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the health advice has been consistently clear from day one. And it was one of the first unusual things we observed about the coronavirus out of what we saw in China. And that was that it wasn't impacting children in the way that influenza virus affects children. And what we learnt back then, and that was China data, and that this was where in the cases that did happen, they caught it from their parents and those who they were living with at home. And so this has been... there are many things we don't know about this virus. But one thing we do know is what it's doing amongst children. And so that is why schools are the obvious place for us to move back to normal as quickly as possible.
GILBERT: And would you like the unions to be more cooperative on that, because they did work effectively with the government, didn't they, on the JobKeeper payment and so on. It seems the teachers unions aren't being as cooperative, not as cooperative as we saw from the ACTU and others.
PRIME MINISTER: They make a point, which is reasonable, that their workplace has to be safe. But as I said, their risk is not in the classroom. Their risk is in the staff room. Now, that's no different to, you know, you and I going to work here. I mean, we've got people who are going to work in supermarkets every day. We've got people who are doing jobs all over the community, driving buses, and they're doing great work and they're turning up to work to do those things. And the health advice is very clear. I mean, these things can be managed. The one and a half metre and the four square metre in the classroom, that is not required based on the health advice. So suggestions that are coming from that group that this is necessary, well, that’s just not true. That's not a credible requirement. They need to ensure that they've got social distancing happening in the lunch room and the staff room and a drop off and pick up in their engagement with parents, sure, of course, they do. But the retailers are doing the same thing right now. People are doing it in manufacturing plants, on construction sites. Workers are doing it. And we need these COVID-safe working environments and today we agreed those principles, national principles, for how when people are, whether it's in an office or anywhere else, that if there are cases or on a dock, we've dealt with those things on wharves as well, that we can quickly rehabilitate those sites and get them operating again.
GILBERT: What's your message to the 800,000 plus individuals who've lost their jobs in the face of this crisis? Have you got a message of hope for them that we're coming back?
PRIME MINISTER: We’re coming back. We're on the road back, and it is our hope that you'll spend as little time as possible on the income support of the JobSeeker program or the JobKeeper program, depending on what your circumstances are. We have built these income supports as being temporary because we know they will only need to be there on a temporary basis because this is a temporary situation we're going through. Devastating, hard, awful. But, Kieran, one of the things I've been most impressed about by Australians is how they have reacted to this, this terrible disruption to their lives. How patient they've been in the vast majority of cases of people at Centrelink or just sort of getting it, this is hard for everybody and understanding they're just doing their job, everyone's trying to help each other. This is why I think tomorrow on ANZAC Day that I reckon I reckon the diggers would be pretty proud of what they've seen from so many Australians at the moment.
GILBERT: It's been very impressive. No doubt about that. And in terms of this, just a couple of things before you go.
PRIME MINISTER: Sure.
GILBERT: On the reform phase. The Government has to be bold here, doesn't it? And you're saying you're looking at these things with a fresh, fresh set of eyes. It's a harvest period to look at these things. But you have to be bold here, don’t you, because we're not facing a regular sort of downturn.
PRIME MINISTER: Whether it's what I've said, what Dr Lowe has said at the Reserve Bank or Dr Kennedy as Head of Treasury. We understand that the economy we're going to move into is going to require different things of Australian businesses, a flexibility that they may have been constrained in before. They're going to need to be able to invest and invest heavily to get the growth that we need for our economy. And so, yeah, of course. This is a unique set of challenges we've got here. And just trying to put the round pegs into square holes of what that new economy will be won't work. So we need to think through those things carefully. That's why, you know, we've bought ourselves quite a bit of time to get this right. And we are engaging in a consultative way and what Nev Power and his coordination commission is doing - really helpful. I mean, they've got no barrows to push. They’re not lobbying for this or that. They've just got a world of experience that is enormously helpful to us. But working with, I mean, Greg Combet is on there, he’s doing an awesome job. David Thodey and Jane Holton has, you know, worked in the medical side of things, on bank boards. You know, they're just great Australians who are very passionate about what they're doing. When I rang them up and asked them to be part of this I said, can you serve your country? And they said absolutely.
GILBERT: This is not a gotcha question. It's a genuine question to see if this is the sort of breadth of what you're looking at. Because I know you looked at the GST and the potential for lifting it where, you know, during the previous prime minister's term. Is that how far we're looking here in terms of, you know, the fresh eyes? Does it extend to that? Because a lot of economists say you need that breadth sort of revenue, basically.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, I again, I haven't been drawn on on any of these things, and no one should be making any conclusions based on that response. What has been done, Kieran, and over the last decade and arguably more, is there's been a lot of proposals made that were done at different times and may not have suited those times in terms of what was achievable. The Productivity Commission has done a lot of work and people heard me refer to the Shifting the Dial Report, something I commissioned when I was Treasurer. Now, that doesn't mean everything in there is potentially achievable at the moment, but there's just been a lot of work. My point about making that observation is we’re not working from scratch here. When I say we’re at a harvest, well, let's put all this stuff on the table again and let's look at the things that we think can best work. But what are we trying to achieve? Jobs, investment, growth. You do those three things. You don’t have to put people's taxes up to get the revenue. You do those three things, your revenues will grow and you'll be out there again. And, you know, you’ve got to deal with resources issues, energy issues, all of these things. But in the midst of this awful time, there is a way through here for Australia that could lead us to be in a much stronger position in the future and particularly to be more competitive than perhaps we've known in a long time.
GILBERT: We certainly hope so. And just last question, and you touched on it, but ANZAC Day tomorrow. A time of isolation and I guess it's going to be a quiet, you know, a quiet sense of solidarity, isn't it tomorrow?
PRIME MINISTER: It's going to be very moving, I think. None of us would have experienced this before and there will be a quiet reflection. And I just love this idea of Australians all over the country standing at the end of their driveway, standing in their apartment, looking out the window with a light, a connection between every Australian. Even though we all turn up on dawn services, this is in the one initiative. And that will be a time of unity that I doubt we've ever experienced before on that sort of scale. And that will be quite unique. But I just hope from it when we reflect on all and we all know we're all passionate about the service of Australians overseas and over the many generations. And we all have those particular stories that we might know more than others. I mean, for me this year and the anniversary of Sandakan and the death march and the isolation of those diggers who had to walk to their deaths, and I've retraced those steps, as you know, with Jason Clare many year ago. The isolation they felt and the strength they were able to exhibit in the worst of circumstances - if they can do that, we can do anything.
GILBERT: Sure can. Appreciate your time and well, obviously, it's going to be a difficult few months ahead, but we're in a good place.
PRIME MINISTER: Better than most, let’s keep it that way.
GILBERT: Thanks, Prime Minister.
