Interview with Oliver Peterson, 6PR
23 August 2021
Prime Minister: G'day Olly and g'day to everyone in WA.
Oliver Peterson: When you talk about those who are trying to undermine the national plan and that their motives are clear, are you talking about Mark McGowan?
Prime Minister: No, I'm talking about Anthony Albanese, and he's just been doing it in Question Time for the last hour or so. So I'm working with all the premiers. The premiers and I have agreed a national plan based on the best scientific, medical and economic modelling, I'd argue, in the world, let alone in Australia, that has basically made it clear that once we get to 70 per cent and 80 per cent, we can start coming out of the cave and we can do that confidently and not on the basis of some day on the calendar, but on the basis of the clear scientific research, which shows that that's when we can do it safely. And I understand that there are those concerns about, this must be done safely. You know, we've done very well in this country to protect lives. And when we take this next step, we have to do it carefully. And that's why we've done so much work to determine what is the safe level of vaccination at which we can do that. And the answer is 70 per cent and 80 per cent.
Peterson: Does the plan need to be tweaked, though, Prime Minister, because the Premier, Mark McGowan quotes the Doherty Modelling saying at 70 per cent vaccination, the outbreak involves 30 cases. Obviously, we're grappling in Australia right now with more than 11,000 active cases. So Mark McGowan says the modelling needs to be redone, that the outbreaks in New South Wales and Victoria force you to deviate from and rework this plan.
Prime Minister: Not the vaccination rates. I mean, I think, I spoke today about what we have to do to prepare for 70 and 80 per cent. And the advice that we've had from Professor McVernon, who did that modelling with a very large team, was that the ultimate conclusions of that work are really not impacted by that. What the real issue is and I understand the two points that I think are being made by Mark and others is we've got to a) ensure that our public health system is ready for that time because, of course, cases will arise when you move into that. But there's a big difference between a case that may occur today in Perth, where vaccination rates in Western Australia at 27.2 per cent and a case that occurs when vaccination rates in Western Australia are at 70 per cent or 80 per cent, it has a much, much, much reduced impact. And so I think that's the first point and what we've seen all around the world, and we're seeing it even in the UK, that even with the case numbers being so high, their levels of hospitalisation and fatality proportionately compared to where they were, significantly reduced from where they were. So we're dealing with sort of almost two different worlds, the vaccinated world and the unvaccinated world. Right now, we're still in the suppression phase and we need to continue to have those restrictions, what you're seeing in the in the eastern states. But we've got to be on our guard in Western Australia. I mean, what has happened in New South Wales and Victoria and the ACT could just as easily happen in Western Australia. We saw that in the ACT. The ACT hadn't had a case for over a year, even more than that and now they're in lockdown in the ACT. That's the nature of the Delta strain. And I know the Premier is very conscious of that. And so we just need to work through the protections that are in place and the public health system can deal with any potential challenges that come through. And I think the further work that's being done by Doherty will greatly assist that.
Peterson: Is living COVID-free at 80 per cent vaccination, a fantasy, Prime Minister?
Prime Minister: Well, I don't know anywhere in the world where anyone is doing that, Olly. I mean, that's, I mean, it's a virus. And if you want to engage with the rest of the world or even the rest of the country, then the virus will be present. I mean, the idea that it won't be present anywhere, I mean, even New Zealand's finding that and New Zealand has run one of the most harshest elimination strategies in the world. I was speaking to Prime Minister Ardern just last night. And, you know, they've got an outbreak now that's going through their Pacific community in Auckland. And, you know, we've been through that experiences with other communities in both Sydney and Melbourne. And once Delta's there, then that's how it goes. So, you know, we've really got no choice. Do we live locked down forever or do we find the safest point of which we can jump off and actually move into the new COVID world where we live with it? I mean, that's the only other way families are going to get reunited across the country. That's the only way people are ever going to see Bali again. That's the only way that we're going to be able to get the tourism industry supported again and be able to move it off the significant economic supports that taxpayers are providing. That's the only way that happens. And we've got to recognise that that is the pandemic world and we need to be able to operate in that. We can't stay in the cave forever.
Peterson: Mark McGowan says, though, even at 80 per cent, lockdowns remain an option, and it's part of this national plan in Phases B and C, is that right?
Prime Minister: Well, it's well, there are two phases. In Phase B, it goes to unlikely but highly targeted. So I'll give you a good example of that. A remote indigenous community in Western Australia or a remote community that might have a low vaccination rate. Well, you know, you've got to protect the vulnerable in those situations and that's what's envisaged in those circumstances and it's certainly at 80 percent, the circumstances would have to be very specific. But, you know, it's not impossible. But if you're talking about complete state wide, metropolitan wide lockdowns in a situation where 80 per cent of your population is vaccinated, well, what all of the advice shows us is, is that would do more harm than good, not just to people's public and mental health, but also to their economic well-being as well. So that's what the work shows. And I know the Premier understands that and I appreciate his support for the national plan. And so we just have to work through how we continue to implement it for the benefit of all Australians.
Peterson: Can you see the conundrum here, though, 70 per cent, WA has to go backwards in putting restrictions like the two square metre rule, caps on venues and stadiums? Right now we're living in a restriction free life, as you and I talk from Canberra to Perth.
Prime Minister: Well, what we also agreed as part of the national plan is that states and territories would not have to go to backwards. And that was a point that the Premier made very clearly. And I made that very clear when I announced the national plan, when it was first agreed. And then when we applied the 70 and 80 per cent vaccination targets when they were agreed as well, that means Western Australia will have to manage its risk a bit more there, because living with the virus means you still do need to have practical common sense measures. And I'd argue you still need those in Western Australia. I mean, you get the Delta variant in an unvaccinated population, which it largely is in Western Australia, it will move very fast.
Peterson: Will you seriously consider withholding, though, financial support if WA or Perth is locked down even after a 70 per cent full vax rates?
Prime Minister: Well, I simply say this. If lockdowns are put in place in an 80 per cent vaccinated population, that will do economic harm to the people who live in that state, it will do economic harm to them. And so the suggestion that the government might want to incentivise something that did economic harm to the Australian public. Well, you know, but look, I can't see that scenario. To be honest, I think people work practically together. The plan is there. We've worked collaboratively on this plan. You know, since what really from March, we started the process back in February. It went through numerous iterations as we work collaboratively together. And the Premier made very good contributions to that. So, you know, I think sometimes people try to make a bit more of a disagreement than there actually is there.
Peterson: So you think you're both on the same page?
Prime Minister: We're working together. The bit I recognise about Western Australia and I've always recognised this about Western Australia, and that is the situation in the West is very different to what's occurring in the East. You know, you've got a situation there where it's, for a start, more of a remote place than the rest of the country. And that, to a large extent, insulated Western Australia from many of the transmissions of the virus that have come on the eastern states. And that's to the great good fortune of Western Australia. And I get it that, you know, we want to be able to preserve that. But, you know, and so Western Australia's done very, very well. But at some point in time, we all have to rejoin the world. And I know Western Australians have, you know, they have an outward looking gaze as well, and they want to do that as well. And they want to welcome people back into their state and they want to go and see their family. And I want to go overseas and they want to do all of these things. And for that to happen, then we need to be able to manage living with the virus rather than squirrelling away from it.
Peterson: The Tourism Council in WA wants all travellers to have the jab. You mentioned before, the rate here, 27.2 per cent. Are you worried how low WA's vaccination rate is compared to other states and territories? I saw just last week, only 516 jabs were administered to West Aussies under 40. By comparison, New South Wales 85,000. Victoria 44,000.
Prime Minister: Well, I think there's a couple of, a couple of reasons that would explain that. One is that in Sydney, where my family is, they're locked down and they're not getting out until we're able to a) bring that under control at the very least, until you can reach those levels of vaccination. So there is a very urgent imperative there. In the West, I understand that people might feel, oh, well, it's a long way away from me. I'm not likely to get it. Well, you can. Delta can move quickly and it can disrupt your life. It can cost you your life. So it's very important for people to get vaccinated for those reasons. But I get it, that in a place that doesn't really seem much COVID, they can feel like the system is giving them their inoculation. It won't. Western Australia is not a good enough vaccine. It's not as good as the vaccine of AstraZeneca and Pfizer. Those things can inoculate you against COVID-19. Borders and other things like this can't.
Peterson: The target rate doesn't include children, will that need to be changed when we have the virus now spreading amongst school students, Prime Minister?
Prime Minister: Well no, it just needs to be done in parallel. In terms of the overall level of the population that is vaccinated, the advice we have is doing that as a percentage of the population aged over 16 is the right thing to do. We considered that at the time. But for those aged between 12 and 15, there's about 1.2 million of those Australians across the country, then we will run a vaccination programme in parallel with that. And we all agree that we need to do that properly. By this Friday, we should have, I think, the final advice from the immunisation advisory group. And we're discussing, again, as they've been worked up over these several weeks, the plans we will need to put in place to get that job done. So the two jobs will be done together.
Peterson: Before I let you go, Prime Minister, on a couple of other matters, Craig Kelly is becoming the leader of Clive Palmer's United Australia Party. Will that now cause a preference deal with the United Australia Party to the next election?
Prime Minister: I'm not even thinking about the next election, to be honest, I've got a global pandemic. I'm trying to get as many people as I can right now out of Kabul. The National Security Committee of Cabinet is meeting every single day. So I can assure you Craig Kelly is the last thing on my mind.
Peterson: Speaking of Kabul, reflecting on the last week, how surprised were you with how quickly the situation deteriorated in Afghanistan?
Prime Minister: Well, I don't know if surprised would be the word, because, as you know, we moved to close our embassy back in May and that was an acknowledgement that we knew with the Americans withdrawing and the further withdrawal of forces that the situation could deteriorate. That's why we had already begun the work. We've already been doing the work for some time to get so many people out of Afghanistan, particularly Afghans, who'd work closely with us. I mean, we got 430 out alone between April and before these events turned very serious for us. And now, you know, we're working hard to get as many people out as we can. There are very brave Australians, that's hundreds and hundreds of Australians right now there in Kabul, getting Australians, Afghans who've worked with us and their families out safely there. We're also helping airlift others of our partners out from New Zealand, from the United Kingdom to the United States. And they're doing the same for us. It's a very dangerous environment and we're making a lot of progress and we've got some very brave people there.
Peterson: Any more thought about a pathway to citizenship for Afghans here on a temporary protection visa?
Prime Minister: No, that won't be happening. That won't be happening. And I'll tell you why. For a start, they are here. They're not in Afghanistan. So they have been removed from that situation. They're on a temporary visa. And we're very clear about the policy. Anybody who came here illegally by boat would not have a pathway to permanent residence. That is not going to change. And I'll tell you why. There are 14,000 people sitting up in Indonesia right now all ready to buy a product from a people smuggler. And I'm not going to give them a ticket.
Peterson: So these people on temporary protection visas could be sent back to Afghanistan?
Prime Minister: No, that's not what I said. I said they will not be provided a pathway to permanent residency, permanent residence or citizenship.
Peterson: Prime Minister, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
Prime Minister: Thanks very much.
