Interview with Tracy Grimshaw, A Current Affair - Channel 9
2 April 2020
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Hello, I'm Tracy Grimshaw. Welcome to A Current Affair. We begin tonight with Prime Minister Scott Morrison, who joins me now from Canberra. Prime Minister, thank you for your time and good evening to you.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Tracy.
GRIMSHAW: You started your briefing today with a synopsis of how much has happened in 10 weeks since you announced that this coronavirus had pandemic potential. Are we today where you thought we would be just 10 weeks ago?
PRIME MINISTER: We obviously have many more cases since then, but with all the pressures we have been under over that period of time and the actions that have been taken, then we are flattening this curve and we are in a position that enables us to get through this. But we have to keep doing the right thing, we have to keep working together. The number of cases, particularly early on, were well-managed and I had a big shout out to the Chinese Australian community today because they were the first that were dealing with the coronavirus in their community. Of course, this coronavirus started up in China, in Wuhan, and we had those flights, we shut off flights and people coming back from China, and they did very well. That means now we are in a stronger position than we might otherwise have been, and if we keep doing the right thing, we keep taking the actions we are taking, then we have the best chance of saving lives and saving livelihoods.
GRIMSHAW: You just said you closed the borders to China about eight weeks ago, other countries followed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, Prime Minister, we all have it. But given we are an island, and every case we have here is imported, with the benefit of hindsight, would you have closed the borders sooner?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, everything we have done has been to take actions based on the medical expert advice and that was the expert advice at the time and we took it. We continue to be guided by that advice and they were the critical decisions at that time. There were some countries in Europe, and the UK, that did not shut…
GRIMSHAW: Do you wish you’d done it sooner, though?
PRIME MINISTER: No, because the issue we’ve had with a couple of particular groups that have come through, and there has been a couple of cruise ships and events like that, about three quarters or two thirds, I should say, of the cases we currently have have been imported from overseas. Now, they have been from Australians coming home. We could never stop Australians coming home. The cases that we’ve had haven't been from visitors, they've been actually from Australians. And so Australians throughout the course of this coronavirus were always going to make their way back and that's where we've had the biggest exposure and that’s why we have further ramped up, week after week, the quarantine and other protections that we’ve had. Self-isolation of people coming back to Australia. So when you close the borders, you can't close them to Australians who live here and that’s who have been coming back and that is where the overwhelming majority of the cases have come from.
GRIMSHAW: So the infection rate is slowing, you said earlier that it looks like we are flattening the curve, the infection rate is slowing. But I wonder whether that is more a reflection of the fact we are now policing our borders and people are forced into quarantine for two weeks where they weren’t for many, many weeks and whether maybe it's community transmission that we still haven't got a handle on?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, community transmission at this point is still very low, but it's the one we're obviously watching most carefully and we have seen a slowing in the overall rate. But that community transmission, that's where someone has contracted it from someone else in Australia, not directly from someone who has come back from overseas. This is the issue that we have to keep very, very focused on and we are. And that's why we have the many restrictions that we have now in place right across the community, led by the National Cabinet, which is all the states and territories, all the Premiers and Chief Ministers who have agreed to put these restrictions in. And they're having an obvious impact and we need to keep having that impact. But they have to be sustainable too, Tracy. I mean, we've got to keep doing this for the next six months. It's fine for people to want to go even further and harder. But if you can't keep that up, then you'll end up putting the population at even greater risk, ultimately, and we have to be careful and keep it sustainable.
GRIMSHAW: Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. I want to talk to you about the six months a bit later that year. Do you have modelling on when you think that this will peak and what a peak will look like based on how the numbers are working now?
PRIME MINISTER: It changes all the time, almost every day, and there's lots of work that's being done and what all that tells you is you've got to keep doing things which mean you keep your economy running and you keep the level of transmission growth as low as you possibly can. And you've got to keep building up your ICU capacity, your personal protective equipment, all of these things, so you can cope with things when they get a lot more advanced than what they are now. That's why all that says. But it changes almost every day and the more we do those things to keep our distance, to ensure that we're following the rules, then that saves lives because that decreases the impact on the health system at the highest peak.
GRIMSHAW: What are you looking for? What are the triggers? What are the benchmarks that you are looking for to tell you that you've got this under control?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I wish it was that easy, but there are many factors that play into this, but one that we constantly look at is, of course, the daily rate of increase, but it's also the community transmission rate. That's what's happening in between Australians and that's something we've been watching, particularly in New South Wales and Victoria. Many other states have much lower rates of community transmission. And the overall numbers of community transmission in New South Wales and Victoria is still relatively low. But we're watching those growth rates and you can get spikes, like we've had with the spikes of growth that we've seen amongst the backpackers out in the eastern suburbs of Sydney. We saw earlier cases centered around places like Ryde and Eastwood. These outbreaks that happen in a local area, you've got to move on very quick. That's been the example of other countries like in Korea and Japan. And I've spoken particularly to the Japanese Prime Minister about that approach when I spoke to him just earlier this week.
GRIMSHAW: You always talk about six months. We're in this for six months. You mentioned that just before as we were talking. The Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Paul Kelly, told us yesterday there has never been an effective coronavirus vaccine for other coronaviruses. Obviously, we don't have one for this one yet. We are at least 12 to 18 months off and you can't eliminate this virus without one. So exactly what parts of this will be over in six months, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what I'm trying to do is make it very clear that those who think this can all be done in a couple of weeks with the ‘lockdown’, as they call it, that's just not true. I'm the only, it would seem, leader in the world at the moment which is talking about a much longer timeframe. I'm trying to get Australians to understand that there is no quick fix on this. Now, the six month period was based on early modelling that was done, which showed how we move through a peak and go through to the other side and it returns to lower levels. But, of course, the Deputy Chief Medical Officer is absolutely right. That's why the whole world is working on a vaccine. Now, on the other side of the peak of cases, we can obviously look at how we might ease restrictions and we have to be careful about that. But what I'm trying to get across to Australians is we're in this new normal for some time. So we have to do things that we can keep doing and when we're doing it, we've got to stay positive. We've got to stay connected, even if we're isolated, and we've got to stay strong and support each other.
GRIMSHAW: I guess people, people want to know what's happening, because I think it's the unknown that is frightening people probably right now as much as anything. Countries like the US…
PRIME MINISTER: I understand that. I understand that. I understand that very much.
GRIMSHAW: Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt, you go ahead.
PRIME MINISTER: I was going to say, there is a lot of anxiety about that and I wish a lot more things were known. But when I talk about the profile we've got in front of us and what is in front of us, what I'm saying is we're going to be in this new normal of where we're living now and the forms of restrictions that we have for the foreseeable future and we need to be able to keep doing that. I mean, if I told you it was all going to be over in two weeks, then people might be happy about that. But I wouldn't... that wouldn't be true. So I'm preparing the country to continue to do this for some time yet to come.
GRIMSHAW: I'm wondering how we're going to be over it, or at least over the bulk of it, in six months. I mean, it's going to be hard to imagine us opening our borders, for example, to the US or to Europe or even the UK for that matter, given what they're going through right now as soon as six months, especially if there's no vaccine.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I've said it's at least six months, Tracy, to be fair. I've said it's at least six months. It could be longer. But that's why when we've put our economic packages together, I've ensured that at least they've been funded to ensure that it takes us through the next six months. But our hope is, of course, over that period of six months that we'll be in a very different position in terms of the way that the virus is moving through the community. But that doesn't necessarily immediately mean that everything else can change and we'll have to assess that at the time based on the best medical advice. But this is going to be... there's a lot of uncertainties around this. And I can't shield people from uncertainties when they are genuine. But what we can do is ensure we put in place the most sustainable set of restrictions, the most generous set of supports that we can, that can help people just get through day by day by day. And day by day, we will get through this together.
GRIMSHAW: It's hundreds… you talked about the stimulus and the support package, it’s hundreds of billions of dollars. How are we going to pay for it, Prime Minister? You must have ideas.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we came into this crisis, which is we're fighting a war on two fronts. We're fighting the virus and we're fighting the very serious economic impacts of that virus. And we came into this crisis with one of the lowest debt to GDPs in the developed world and in the world. And that means that we are in a position to increase - even though it will be a much greater burden to carry - than most, almost all, the countries everywhere else in the world that are doing the same thing. So by keeping and going into this crisis with a budget that returned to balance, with getting debt under control, all of those things means that we can now take these steps. That's why we've been so keen and so focused in the past before the crisis on making sure we had strong financial management. But of course, it will be a greater burden. But we've made commitments that we know we can meet. But we've been careful about them and not to overextend. We've got to make what we've done last as long as possible.
GRIMSHAW: So do we expect increased taxes, increased GST, a massive deficit levy? I asked these questions of Josh Frydenberg this week. Are you going to change super? I mean, you're going to have to look at something. You can't just carry a $300 billion debt.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, right now, I'm focused on getting people through the crisis. There will also be a recovery plan that will come and that will also show the way out and the way we can meet these these greater commitments into the future. But we've been careful to ensure that they don't go on forever. The support we're providing is for a fixed time. We haven't committed to expenditure out over 12, 18 months, two years, which is what happened after the last financial crisis and that had a terrible impact on the budget. I don't mean that as a criticism, that is just a simple observation of history. And so what we're doing is we're keeping the support we're providing very focused, very tight, and we're being very disciplined about it. And that enables us to be more focused and targeted on giving people the help they need right now.
GRIMSHAW: You became, I think, emotional today when you are asked about what you say to your family and I know my mates' kids are asking them, when are we ever going to stop talking about the coronavirus? And I think we probably never are. What do you say to your kids?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we just talk about what happens every day and we just try to keep our kids focused on the here and now and just what's going to happen tomorrow and the day after that. And what's happening at school and talking to their friends and trying to keep their life as normal as possible and that's a big focus for us. I mean, I became a bit emotional today because I was thinking about a conversation I had with my grandmother and she lived through the depression out in rural New South Wales and she used to tell me stories about what that was like. And I honestly hope that my kids would never have to grow up in a situation that she faced. It is very upsetting that as a nation, we're faced with this. It is not through any fault of ours in Australia. These events have happened to us. But we will respond in the same way that my grandmother's generation did, I have great confidence about that, and I know my girls will show as much character as she did when she was growing up at that time. But we talk about the normal things each day. But one of the things I'm a little concerned about, because our kids are now doing a lot of their schooling online, Tracy, and that means as parents, we've got to be very mindful that they're now in an online environment. And that means the e-safety that we need to ensure that our kids are getting at home when they're on their computers as parents and carers and others. We've got to lift up our eyes onto that very real risk and esafety.gov.au is a great tool for parents in terms of the things that they need to know to keep their children safe online. And we've got a scammers website as well and that is also to protect people from scammers who are looking to take advantage of them during this period. While Australians will be great, there'll be some grubs out there who will want to do the wrong thing and we need to protect our families from them.
GRIMSHAW: You're right. It's an important message. We actually spoke with the e-safety Commissioner just two nights ago, I think, the days go quickly. I can't remember, but I think it was two nights ago. Anyway, it was good to talk with you. I know you are very busy.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, Julie Inman Grant, she's doing a great job.
GRIMSHAW: Yep, she is.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks a lot. Good to be with you.
GRIMSHAW: You, too. Prime Minister Scott Morrison there in Canberra.
