UK Policy Exchange Q&A
23 November 2020
Prime Minister, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Prime Minister, thank you and we will now hear, I hope, from our own Prime Minister who wants to say a few words of congratulations so I hope we can have the connection.
THE RIGHT HONOURABLE BORIS JOHNSON MP, PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Good evening to everybody in Canberra, good morning from London. It gives me great pleasure to congratulate my friend Scott Morrison on winning the Policy Exchange Grotius Prize and goodness Grotius me, you might say. And listen, I mean, all the historical rivalry between our two countries, whether between the fans of Larwood or Bradman or Jonny Wilkinson versus the Wallabies in 2003, the hysterical partisans of marmite or vegemite, there is a huge amount that unites us and that we do together. It is fantastic to work with Scott in sticking up for things that both the UK and Australia believe in together and believe in passionately. Our common security, our principles, our beliefs in democracy, in fundamental freedoms, in the rules-based international system. And, of course, there is also the small matter of free trade and I am delighted that we are doing a deal that I hope we will be able to conclude. A deal that will see, finally, the people of Britain able to access the supplies of Tim Tam chocolate biscuits in the quantities that we need and the people of Australia are able to get Penguins in exchange. Here’s to you, Scott, well done, many congratulations on your prize and here is to the UK-Australia free trade deal.
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Thank you, Prime Minister, and now I am going to, Prime Minister Morrison has very kindly will answer questions. If I can just ask people to stick up their virtual hands so we can have the greatest possible choice of questions across the international community and if you could please first state your name and organisation. So the first question I see is from Tom Tugendhat MP, Chair of the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee. Tom.
QUESTION: Thank you, Dean, and congratulations Prime Minister and thank you for your defence of the international rules-based system. It is noticeable that in recent weeks and months, Australia has been on the frontline with blocks coming to your sales overseas, particularly with China, from your defence of the rules-based system with the World Health Organisation. You’ll have read the report by the Policy Exchange, forwarded by Shinzo Abe, and you’ll have seen I hope the work of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the past two years pointing out the threat that some authoritarian states, and most notably China, pose to our international order. Could you comment on how you see the UK’s role being allied to not just Australia but also Japan, India and many others, in defending the system, in buttressing it, for the prosperity and peace of all?
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you for the question and thank you for your kind words. Look, Australia in how we approach these issues is no different really from the time that when Alexander was our Foreign Minister for that record period of time. The policies we have in relation to the rules-based order, the Indo-Pacific are no different today than they were in John Howard's time. And there are some things that have changed, of course, to our north. But Australia's position hasn't changed. Circumstances can lead to different actions, but always consistent with the same policies and principles that we've always held. And I think that is the key. The thing about rules-based order is it's about stability and consistency and that provides certainty. And Australia has always just sought to be consistent in our views about these things. And to take seriously the obligations that sit under these rules and the World Trade Organisation. And we rightly have the same expectations that others should respond in kind. And to engage in good faith in where the disputes might arise and observe not just the letter, but the spirit of these rules, because that's what makes it all hang together. And so another part of our approach, we've just got to be patient about this, and we just need to be consistent in holding to these positions and pursuing them in a way that seeks to get to where we all want to be, at the end of the day. I mean, the point here is that we want to be in a situation, particularly here in the Indo-Pacific, where we can freely trade and see the growth and prosperity of the nation states of the Indo-Pacific, whether it's Japan, South Korea or Indonesia, a great friend of Australia, Vietnam with whom we have an extraordinary relationship that is just really blossoming, dealing with in partnership with many of the sort of security issues and rule of law issues in relation to the South China Sea. We share views. We have completely different political systems, but we can come together with a shared understanding of the challenges in our region. And that's the outcome we seek. So we seek to keep our eyes focussed on what outcome we want, which is the advancement of all nations within the Indo-Pacific, including China, because China's advance is good, is in our interests. So it's not our objective to see them contained economically. And I think trying to be as clear in that message as we possibly can, and having that position shared with as many like mindeds, whether they be in the region because of their own sovereign interests or if they'd be further afield like the UK and Europe and indeed the United States, where there is a bond that is driven by shared values. And that's why, as I said in my remarks, groups like the G7 and the OECD are so important because that's where liberal, market-based democracies come together. And what I was hoping to convey is it was that set of values, it was that cooperation that resisted some of the greatest tyranny ever foisted upon the planet and its peoples and provided a pathway to peace and prosperity that was unimaginable in earlier times. And that just fills me with confidence that we can make it that way again in a very peaceful and constructive way.
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Thank you, Prime Minister. Next question from Right Honourable Sir Michael Fallon, former defence secretary, of course, played a very important part in developing relations with Australia, a distinguished member of our own Indo-Pacific Commission here at Policy Exchange. Sir Michael. Do I have Sir Michael coming in? I don't hear him. Viscount Trenchard, another important voice in the House of Lords on matters of the Indo-Pacific.
QUESTION: Good morning and many congratulations, Prime Minister, on becoming the first recipient of the Grotius Prize. I was very pleased to hear that you mentioned the potential accession of the UK to the CPTPP, but would like to hear from you what are the principal issues the UK might face in seeking and achieving accession and to what extent Australia can help the UK overcome these issues? And what timescale do you think is realistic for that? I think some British people are a little confused to have heard recently about RCEP. To what extent does it cut across the CPTPP and to what extent is it complementary to it? Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you, and thank you also for your kind congratulations. Very good question. First of all, the TPP is a much more ambitious trade agreement than RCEP. And it really builds and goes beyond, I think, of the WTO baselines. As I said, it goes into digital commerce and a range of other areas which make it quite a landmark agreement, the new platform upon which others we think can be built upon. RCEP is an important agreement for the Indo-Pacific region because for the first time, it brings all of those 15 countries into one arrangement, and that is its great power. And that will mean a lot. I mean, we have 14 agreements already with each of those partners in the RCEP. So from Australia's point of view, we had already achieved the access through our individual bilaterals. And that largely simplifies it now through RCEP and creates a form of economic community. For TPP though, it goes much beyond that. And Australia fought hard, and I acknowledge, particularly the former Prime Minister Mr Turnbull and the then Trade Minister Ciobo, who worked very hard to keep the TPP alive after the decision by the United States not to participate. And we were successful in doing that. And we particularly worked with Shinzo Abe as Prime Minister, who was outstanding also, in leading the charge to see the TPP realised. Now, I remember when the decision had been taken following Brexit, I met then with then Chancellor Hammond. We were in Shanghai, I think, or in China somewhere, at one of the many G20 meetings. And it was his first visit there as Chancellor. Previously he had been Foreign Minister. And I said to him, I said, well, the TPP is a model that the UK can just step right into. And I'm pleased to see that having planted that seed, we're at where we are now. And I've got to say, I don't think there are any great obstacles to it at all other than us I think being positive and in supporting the UK's involvement. I think the, I mean, obviously it has to be done with the consent of all parties to the TPP. But as members of it, we're all quite keen for it to grow in strength and reach and I think the UK would be a great addition to the TPP. But that, of course, is subject to the views of our colleagues. And so you would get no argument from Australia about that. You’d get a willing partner, and because of the nature of the UK's offering, embracing the free trade premise, then I think they would find it an easy and easier passage. And in doing so, this would set an important benchmark for other potential entrants and so that's another reason why I think the UK's involvement would be a very positive development.
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Thank you, Prime Minister. Sir Michael Fallon, have we got a connection with you now? Can you hear us? I know you're trying to unmute and various other audio wizardry. We'll try with someone else now. Professor (inaudible) of King's College London, with which we have a connection also through our distinguished chairman. Alessia.
QUESTION: Good morning, Dean. Prime Minister, congratulations and thank you very much for what was a truly inspiring talk this morning. I would like to draw your attention back to a point you were making about the new habits of cooperation, which I think is very important. And speaking about this, you talked about your recent visit last week to Japan in which you introduced this truly transformational agreement, this reciprocal access agreement. And this, I understand, was a relatively long process. And I would like to ask you, what would be your recommendation to the UK government if the UK were to pursue a similar access agreement with Japan? Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you again for your kind words. This is quite an extraordinary agreement. I mean, there is only one other country with whom Japan has this type of status of forces agreement, and that's with the United States and that was reached in 1960. So these things have been a while between drinks for Japan. And you're right, it was actually Prime Minister Abbott who proposed to Prime Minister Abe that this should be the next step in our relationship. And it has been going many years. When I first became Prime Minister, one of my early meetings was with Prime Minister Abe up in Darwin. And it was clear to me in that meeting that there was a long way to go on this and so we invested an enormous amount of energy in it. I did personally, as well as our Defence Minister, Foreign Minister and of course, our officials and our ambassador, Richard Court. This was the priority agenda for us in our relationship with Japan. It also builds on a, you know, an incredibly long relationship with Japan. I mean, we had the commerce agreement and Alexander will correct me, I'm sure, if I get the date wrong. But 1957, when it was a coalition government that entered into that agreement for a commerce agreement. So we've been trading and establishing firm bilateral relations over a very long period of time. So, look, I'm not really in a position to comment on how such an arrangement could be achieved between Japan and the United Kingdom. That's probably not my place to do so. But it also stems out of a key reason that I believe this came together, apart from the personal relationships, was that I said when I was up there that Australia and Japan have a uniquely shared view on the Indo-Pacific. We both have a very important alliance with the United States, and China is both of our biggest trading partner. We are both in the Indo-Pacific region. Japan, of course, has very specific interests in the Sea of Japan and other places. It's very close to home for them in terms of the issues that are present. But for Australia, similarly, we want to create the stability in the region. And I believe our relationship with Japan and what we've been able to get to this week -it was last week, it was this day just under a week ago. I think that really has been a contributor to regional stability. And I think will be very warmly welcomed in the region. So the short answer is, I think the dynamics are different. I think the context is different. There's no doubt there's a shared like mindedness between Japan and the United Kingdom, and the history of your relationship is I’m sure somewhat different to ours. But like-minded countries, getting together on these things is a good thing.
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Thank you, Prime Minister. Now, final question, if we can connect with you with Sir Michael Fallon, Sir Michael, are you there? Third time lucky I hope.
QUESTION: Can you hear me now?
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Loud and clear.
QUESTION: Excellent. Prime Minister. Thank you very much for such a refreshing talk this morning. Can I pick up on your answer to Tom Tugendhat, where you referred to China's interests, when it comes to international agreements like the Law of the Sea Convention, given China's legitimate ambition to expand its reach across the Indo-Pacific and beyond, how do we persuade China that one day it really will be in its own interests to respect a convention as strong as that and to abide by its rulings?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Sir Michael and good to hear from you again, I remember we met on several occasions, I think, when I was last in the UK. Look, this is a, this is the $64,000 dollar question, really. I mean, it's very difficult, I think, to understand the mind of China and their outlook. But it is our task to seek to do so. Of course, there are tensions. I won't deny that. But I do feel that many of the tensions are based on some misunderstandings. And I think one of the key misunderstandings is a level of confidence about what we see is the end result. Our end result from Australia's point of view as I said, is not containment, our end result is happy coexistence, respecting each other's sovereignty and systems and being able to happily coexist in a mutually beneficial relationship. And I believe that's where both parties of this relationship have a lot more work to do to get to that shared understanding of what we see the ultimate goal as being. And I suppose for all other like-mindeds, it's the same goal. I think we have to be able to be convincing. And it’s certainly Australia's position that that's where we want this to end up. And if we can work from there and go backwards, then I hope that that will create a better environment for the relationship we're having now. But I do think all of these things are heavily clouded and distorted by the overwhelming influence of these strategic competitions and the tensions that arise from that between the United States and China. Very difficult to see others other than through the lens of that relationship with the United States. And perhaps the atmospherics of that relationship will change following the most recent election. I do believe in the US system, though there is a strong resolve there on these issues. And that is largely a bipartisan view, as best as I could see in the United States. But I think the role of multilateral institutions, confirming what the ultimate goal is, but being really clear that these goals depend upon respecting those important international norms and rules and not just in the letter, but in the spirit also, and to deal with each other in a very direct way, and particularly when there are disagreements or misunderstandings, the lines have to remain open. Now, unfortunately, at the moment in our own relationship, those lines of communications are not as we'd like them to be. But that is, that is not of Australia's doing, we're very open to having those conversations and indeed these 14 points as have been officially, unofficially, I should say, nominated, happy to have a discussion about all of them. But we'll do that from the perspective of our interests. And I would expect nothing different from our comprehensive strategic partner, China. So, Sir Michael, a long answer, not one that necessarily provides as much assurance as we'd all like, but that's the nature of the world in which we live. And that's why we rely, I think, on the values that underpin the rules-based order that were important 400 years ago. And just as important today.
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Thank you, Prime Minister, and before calling upon our Chairman of Trustees, Alexander Downer, to deliver a vote of thanks. I want to pre-empt several things. First of all, you noted the 14 points put forward officially unofficially, I noted one of the 14 points that was a source of grievance to the PRC spokesman, it was the role of think tanks. So I just wanted here at this point to extend solidarity to our friends in the think tank world in Australia. It's flattering that our work matters, and also that at this moment that you've kindly referred to, Prime Minister, and thank you for your warm words of endorsement. We published our own Indo-Pacific commissioned report today, which was chaired by former Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, also chair of the International Democrat Union. I commend everybody who might not have been as diligent ahead of the game as Prime Minister Morrison to read it on www.policyexchange.org.au It's an outstanding piece of work and proud to commend it to you. And finally, before handing over to Alexander, just to say one other thing, of course, we are cast to all of the four winds today, four freedoms you've talked about, Atlantic Charter and so on. And that means we cannot actually give you the prize in person, but the prize is Grotius, an original volume of Grotius own The Law of War and Peace, and we look forward to dispatching it to you, it's a wonderful, has a wonderful actually like all old books, a wonderful odour about it in every possible substant and olfactory sense, as our Prime Minister here might say. So I commend it also to everyone here. But it's a privilege, of course, to have an Australian as chairman of trustees of Policy Exchange, more and more people from the Commonwealth are holding and from the wider world, are holding eminent positions in British life. And it's very good to have somebody who understands the issue so thoroughly, as Alexander is the longest serving foreign minister in Australia's history and subsequently as a distinguished High Commissioner in London, following in the footsteps, of course, of his father, who embodied so many of these themes we're addressing today. Alexander, over to you.
THE HON. ALEXANDER DOWNER AC: Well, thanks very much, Dean. And Prime Minister, first of all, let me congratulate you on being the first recipient of the Grotius prize and also on your really excellent speech this morning or this evening to us all. I think I think those listening will be quite inspired by it because it does demonstrate, if you'll excuse me, sounding a little [inaudible], in government [inaudible] and especially under your leadership times, has a very sound and coherent and clear foreign policy, and it's always important for a country to have that. And I think you've articulated three or four very key principles which make for a good foreign policy.
First of all, no doubt about this, a robust defence of the national interest and national sovereignty, and even your worst critics wouldn't say that you had let the side down on that front. There have been times when you've been very robust and quite rightly so.
And secondly, a good foreign policy, which you have demonstrated in your speech this morning and in practice is one that contributes where it makes sense to collective efforts to deal with international problems and the efforts that you've made to contribute to trade liberalisation, to climate change and of course, to the pandemic. Where maybe collective efforts could have been better than they have been, but your commitment to all of those things, I think is that is really laudable and it's coherent and it makes sense.
I think the third thing to say is, and you've talked about this quite a lot this morning or this evening, that you have to deal in Australia with the most important single geopolitical issue of our time, which is the rise of China. And you've used the phrase, which I used for years, that a policy of containment of China will never work. We shouldn't pursue a policy of containment we should pursue a policy of engagement and cooperation with China. They haven't been very cooperative. You can't say that, but I will. I think they could have been much more cooperative with Australia than they have been. And I don't think it's in their interests not to collaborate and cooperate with Australia. But nevertheless, I think you've handled it with great courage often and very well and set quite an example to be, quite an example to the world. I also think the broader Indo-Pacific strategy as a continuation, as you said, of what we did way back in the days of John Howard and that is effectively and you quoted Condi Rice here, building a power balance in the region, the evolution of the trilateral security dialogue into the Quad, the amazing agreement that you struck last week with the Japanese, the Reciprocal Access Agreement. It's a huge achievement, not to be understated or underestimated demonstrates how this power balance in the region is such an important component of keeping the region stable and prosperous.
And I suppose the last thing I wanted to say is that Policy Exchange is launching its Indo-Pacific Commission report today. And I know Australia and you've referred to this, would welcome the UK to join the TPP or the CPTPP and conclude very quickly a free trade agreement with Australia and other countries in the region. And I'm personally delighted that so many people in the UK want to get the UK back into the Indo-Pacific region. And I personally, and I know you'll agree with me, think that this will be very much in Australia's interests as well.
So, Prime Minister, congratulations. And it's been wonderful to spend some time with you this morning.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you very much, Alexander. That's very, very, very kind words, and I appreciate them very much given our long association.
DEAN GODSON, DIRECTOR OF POLICY EXCHANGE: Over and out. Thank you, everybody.
