Interview with Ray Hadley, 2GB
6 May 2020
RAY HADLEY: Prime Minister, good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER: G’day Ray.
HADLEY: How do you find the energy to keep going?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Australians are amazing. I mean, I just see what they’re doing every day. And you know, that that only just charges us on. And I think, as it does you and everyone else. And, you know, we were in a very difficult time as a country, but we’ve more than measured up to it, I think. And we've done very well on the health side of things. You know, of course, that we're looking at just under 100 deaths. And each and every one of those is a terrible outcome for, obviously, those individuals and their families. But compared to overseas, we've done well. But we're now we’ve got to get people back to work. I need to get a million people back to work because people being out of a job is not success.
HADLEY: Now, are you concerned that people are trying to equate those near 100 deaths to the financial imposition on this country, given what you and the Treasurer and your government have done to keep us, not keeping afloat, but just treading water until we're out of this particular horror?
PRIME MINISTER: Well the potential tragedy here in Australia, I mean, Australia was no more immune to things than they were in the United States or London or anywhere else. And this all could have happened here. And I remember back in mid-March, and late March, we were having daily increases of over 20 per cent a day. And so we could have very, very much gone down that path. And through what we've been able to do, we've been able to arrest that. But I've always said you've got to fight this battle on two fronts. You gotta fight the economic crisis and you've got to fight the health crisis. And that's what we've been doing all the way along. Now, on the healthside, we've done very well. But on the economic side, we’ve sought to cushion the blow with some of the biggest income, well the biggest income supports the country has ever has ever seen. And that is to get people through this and businesses through this to the other side. So we can grow again. And that's what we've got to focus on now. Keep the health situation under control and get get the businesses open and get the kids back to school, get the people back to work and get people earning again.
HADLEY: See, I have heard about this herd immunity. 71,000 in the USA are dead, the UK is heading towards 30,000, I’m not suggesting they’ve got herd immunity. But what I'm suggesting is even allowing for our lesser population, the fact that we keep it at this stage under a hundred and the clusters, of course, many of those deaths via Ruby Princess. I'll get to that a bit later. And Newmarch in western Sydney, but God only knows what would have happened, had you decided to go down a different path. And that's lost all your critics about what you're doing. You're saying, oh look we’ll never pay the debt off. But if you didn't do what you did. We're in strife?
PRIME MINISTER: Thousands, thousands, if not tens of thousands, and certainly in terms of people contracting the virus, potentially hundreds of thousands. And this idea of herd immunity, nobody's got herd immunity. I mean the United States haven't reached it, Sweden hadn't reached it, the UK hasn't reached it. I mean, you've got to get to about 60 per cent, two thirds sf your population. And even with all the death and devastation we've seen and all of those countries, they went nowhere near herd immunity and no one's going to reach that. And so the idea that that's some sort of path you can go down, that's a death sentence, and that's not something that Australia has ever contemplated. What we've done is to ensure we get good safe controls in place. And what we've built up now is, is protections. We've got our ICU capacity up. We've got our access to personal protective equipment up. We've got more respirators. We've been able to get large amounts of testing into Australia to have a comprehensive testing regime, we've got the COVIDSafe app, please download the COVIDSafe app, over five million people have that now, and our outbreak response capability has been built up. So that means with all of those things in place and people getting used to the idea of social distancing, particularly as restrictions ease. We've got some protections now that we didn't have six, eight weeks ago, which means we can open up in what I'm calling a COVID Safe Australia.
HADLEY: I know that the National Cabinet has worked really well. There's been great cooperation between the Premiers and the Chief Ministers and yesterday the New Zealand Prime Minister. But in relation to frustrations, you are also getting people back into school and getting back into jobs. Now I've got an email from a listener in south western Sydney. It's ridiculous, right? The children have to get back to school. I work in retail at Westfield out here. I suspect it's Liverpool, Westfield, and all I see are parents bringing their children shopping. Wouldn't they be better off at school than being in a large shopping centre, mingling with hundreds, if not thousands of people? And I go to my own shopping centre regularly, and that's what you see. The mums are out, the dads are out, and the kids are everywhere. And they're not being locked in a bubble somewhere at home. They're out and about, but why not at school?
PRIME MINISTER: Well the health advice has been consistent from day one on this. And one of the interesting things about the COVID-19 is it's very low rate of transmission and movement between children and particularly when it comes to severe cases amongst children. Children can safely go to school, schools have always been safe to fully open. And, you’ve got to make sure that workplace for those who work in it, for the teachers, others, is safe. But the same is true for supermarket workers. People working at petrol stations. People working in hospitals. People working in this Parliament building I'm sitting in right now. And in your radio station, wherever they happen to be. We've all got to have COVID safe work environments. And that's something we spoke of yesterday after the National Cabinet. Nev Power, who's heading up that COVID Commission together with the Attorney-General, has worked with Greg Combet and the industry and unions to ensure we've got some good tools out there for businesses to be able to open, keep their patrons safe, keep their workers safe. And that's what we have to focus on because that's what opens the economy up again. But yeah, we need kids back at school. We need people back at work. We need the businesses open again. They can't all open at once. And this Friday, we're going to consider all that again with a framework that will take us out over the next few months and what people can expect. But at the end of the day, the individual states and territories, they're the ones who have to make the calls about what gets opened when, they're the ones who have the authority over that. And you're right Ray. I mean, there has been differences between states and territories. I think the National Cabinet Federation has worked better than I've ever seen at work in my public life experience. But that's not to say we haven't had a few differences of view and a few of those have been robust. But that's all right. People respect each other.
HADLEY: Now, I know that this is not your, and I’ll forward this to the Premier of New South Wales, but it's about these mobile services going back tomorrow. And it's beauty spas and things like that. They can start going out to people's houses. But this is typical of the email I get from someone who operates a business in south western Sydney again, it’s a day spa, 250 square meters, including seven private treatment rooms, employs seven staff. None of them working at the moment. Registered ABN always operated with strict hygiene procedures. Now we let people go to other people's home with no restriction on them going to someone's home for their mobile service. But here we are ready to go with the strictest protocols in place and we can't open. Would that be something that can be discussed on Friday? And I'll talk to the Premier about it. But it appears to me, if I can go and get a haircut this afternoon, a lady can get her hair done and dyed. I don't know why someone can't get their nails painted or, you know, their eyebrows plucked or something else. I just don't understand it.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look all of these things are being worked through by the medical expert panel, and by the Premiers. And Ray I know there's some frustration about what are going to be inevitable inconsistencies. I mean, playing the percentages on this is really what they're all trying to achieve. That doesn't mean in every instance there's going to be complete consistency between these things. It's a very difficult thing to manage. I mean, ultimately, you'd rather be regulating behaviour than activities. And ultimately in a COVID safe Australia, that's where you get to. So you don't have to focus so much on this shop or that shop or, you know, playing golf or playing footy or whatever it is. It's about the distancing, it's about the practices that you pursue as, in the behaviour that you have. And that's that's the biggest defence and downloading the COVIDSafe app and all of these sorts of things. That's what really gives you the protection. But I'd just ask the public to continue to be patient. I know that there are, I mean, we can draw a line, and I have no doubt you'll be able to find inconsistencies. I don't mean you personally, but generally people will find, they'll go, well why is that ok and why is that not? They fair questions, but I can assure you as much consistency is being achieved as is possible and the states, I'm sure will seek to move forward in the best way they can and try to avoid that. But you can't avoid it completely.
HADLEY: By the way, just through - no new cases of the virus in Queensland overnight, which is tremendous news. They've done that a number of times in the past fortnight.
PRIME MINISTER: And good on them on schools, too. That was great.
HADLEY: Yeah, yeah well she did, she said okay from next Monday we're going to have this, this and this back and by the I think late May the 25th, or 28th, they're all back, they made that announcement and I congratulated Annastacia Palaszczuk for being a leader when that, you and I've never discussed anti-vax before and I would have thought in the middle of this virus people who have that view would be at least pulling their heads in because what we're searching for across the world at the moment is a vaccination. To cure this one and I lived through and probably you didn't, but I lived through mates of mine with polio and people living in iron lungs, as did my parents. And I got the oral vaccine in about ‘63 or ‘64, which crushed polio. So I just don't understand, but this is typical. I've had comments to about Bryce Cartwright and his wife, and unless he gets a flu shot, he might not play rugby league. This bloke says, you have no clue what research Bryce and his wife have done, get off your high horse. If we have no say what goes on their body. We may as well pack it in. I wonder whether Kyle would be the first in the line to get a vaccine for the virus if it's some time in the next 12-18 months?
PRIME MINISTER: I reckon. When I was Social Services Minister, I started the ‘no jab, no play’ rule into the childcare facilities, and I think the same rule applies there. No jab, no play.
HADLEY: Exactly, well, I think you're right about that. Now, look, one of the things I've tried not to be critical of health services in any jurisdiction because I'm blowed if I know how they're doing it. And there are -
PRIME MINISTER: They’re doing an amazing job.
HADLEY: But, look, this is a… we may be on dangerous ground here. The Special Commission of Inquiry in New South Wales into what happened with the Ruby Princess. There are two different reports today. One by Yoni Bashan in The Australian, which talks about this young woman put before the Commission yesterday, Kelly-Anne Ressler. Now, it says, according to Yoni Bashan, she was not on the four person panel that graded the ship the low risk. She did not write the guidelines governing cruise ship arrivals. She's not a medical doctor qualified to give clinical advice. But yet somehow she ended up wearing the mistakes of an entire department, according to the Commissioner. Bret Walker SC, normally an affable man, became impatient and barked these questions, sharpening to a withering cross-examination which the woman eventually collapsed with emotion. Now, she apologised all the rest of it. I know we need to find out, Prime Minister, what happened with the Ruby Princess.
PRIME MINISTER: We do.
HADLEY: But I don't want one person to carry the blame and the weight. And this young woman this morning may be picking up the paper and saying, my God, I did all this to the country. And I don't want her to think that. Yes, she might have made mistakes along with her colleagues. But we need some compassion because they were not deliberate mistakes. There were mistakes made under pressure. And I would remind everyone, that ship arrived at 2 o'clock in the morning. I mean, doubt that the Health Minister or the Premier were awoken in New South Wales to say, what do you think about the ship coming in? Nor the bureaucrats above this woman.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, well, I don't know about that, but I mean, I found those images and I wasn't able to see the whole video of it, Ray, so I sort of give that qualification. But I found that very distressing. I think it's our nurses and doctors and first responders, they're all doing a great job. But spare a thought also for those public health officials. I mean, I'm working with them every day here at Commonwealth level and across the states. They have been working day and night for months and months and months. They're all trying to do their best. And when you think about it and I mean, what's happening in Newmarch, I know was very upsetting. But when you think about the fact we've got 2,700 aged care facilities around the country and we've had issues in about only 23 of them and severe issues in only a couple. People, you know, they're not perfect, they're not going to get it right every single time. But I do know they're doing their best and they do deserve, I think, a bit of support and comfort at a time like this and a great deal of thanks. And I thank her for the great job that she's been seeking to do and I know we've got to get to the truth on this sort of stuff, but I mean, my first blush on that one, and that's not to call into question the independence of the Royal Commission or anything like that. But I found that a bit out of line, Ray, and I think to see her reduced to that under that sort of aggressive line of what would appear questioning, I know you've got to get the balance right on this one. And I would hope that Mr Walker would reflect on that.
HADLEY: Okay. Couple of things before you have to go. And by the way, I think and I think you'd agree, that when this is all over we need a national day for all of those emergency workers, be they health, police, ambos, paramedics, fire and rescue. We need a national day of thanks..
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah.
HADLEY: ...for the doctors, the nurses, the orderlies, the cleaners, the people that are in health.
PRIME MINISTER: Supermarket workers.
HADLEY: The lot of them that have worked through the crisis. Just a quick one. Mike Pompeo said there's enormous evidence that the coronavirus came from a research lab. He's not suggesting they did it deliberately, but a mistake was made that they didn't admit to. On the front page of the Tele today it says your Government is erring on the side of caution until perhaps you see proof. Do you think there is proof available? Would you be asking the Americans for that proof?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, I haven't seen anything that suggests that conclusively and all we've simply said is, of course, it's not. You can't rule it out and I haven't ruled it out. And we have access to a lot of information and I can only offer information that we have. But what this just demonstrates, Ray, is the quite straightforward, I think quite transparent, reasonable request that there be a proper, transparent, independent review as to what happened, where did it happened, how did it start? These are important questions and I don't intend to back off from asking them. I've written to all the G20 leaders and asked for this to be done at the World Health Assembly, which is on the 18th of May. Greg Hunt will be representing us through telepresence at that meeting. We'll be supporting motions being put forward by the European Union, which start as a first step to this process. It's important we do this. It's not directed at any one country. This could happen anywhere in many countries. And on what we've seen, the most likely outcome was the transfer from an animal to a human. These things can happen in wildlife wet markets and that's why we've separately had a view about the public health issues surrounding wildlife wet markets, and we don't back off from that either. And that just doesn't occur in China. There are many countries where these things are and we need to protect public health because a quarter of a million people are dead. And if we don't ask the transparent questions as, you know, a democratic free nation like Australia saying, look, you've got to have transparency. If this had happened in Australia, well, I would expect inspectors to come here and look into it and be open to that and I don't think that's an unreasonable thing. And I think what the US has said, what we've said, what the French President has said, what Boris Johnson said - I was talking to Boris the other night, I mean, this thing nearly killed Boris, and I can assure you he's pretty keen to understand what happened. So we're all working together, it's not directed at anyone. We just need to know because we can't have this happen again.
HADLEY: You see, one of the things... an email just popped up from Gympie in Queensland. Ask the Prime Minister how we distinguish between half a million flu deaths that occur every year and the COVID deaths. I mean, look, I'm sick to the back teeth, I have to put a tablet under my tongue before I answer that personally.
PRIME MINISTER: COVID-19, Ray, kills 10 times faster than the flu, at least. At least.
HADLEY: There is a vaccination for the flu, of course, which will minimise the impact on nearly everyone.
PRIME MINISTER: There's treatment capabilities and all these sorts of things. But this thing, yes, the overwhelming number of cases, the overwhelming number of cases are people that have a mild condition and we know that. But this has killed a quarter of a million people, at least, and I suspect the death toll is far higher than that in many countries, not because they're not disclosing it. It's just because, you know, the systems aren't there to know and we can't kid ourselves. This could have caused absolute carnage in Australia. The fact that it hasn't is to Australians’ credit. But now, as I was saying yesterday, we have to fight this war on two fronts. We can't... success is not standing up every day and saying no cases here or only five or 10. That is not success when you have a million people out of work and we've got to get them back to work, we've got to do it safely. We'll have a plan for doing that and we're going to ask for people's continued patience as we do that and understanding, understanding of those officials making those decisions. I mean, they’re doing a great job. I mean, you were talking about everyone working before, right? I mean, we've surged over five and a half million [thousand] people in the Services Australia and to Centrelink. They have processed a million claims in the last six weeks. I'm very proud of the work they're doing. We've got people who would normally work in the Department of Parliamentary Services here in this building in Canberra. We've set up conference rooms where they're on phones, taking calls and processing people's dole claims. That's what's happening. I mean, the public service response to this, I'm very proud of what they're doing. I mean, they cop a bit of flak every now and then, as you know. But I'll tell you, in this crisis, I'm very proud of our public servants, including the young woman who was appearing as part of the Royal Commission yesterday.
HADLEY: Okay. Just a final one. You fielded a call last night from Her Majesty. How does that operate? I mean, does she scroll down on her mobile, and ScoMo, I’ll give ScoMo a ring, have a yarn to him. I mean, I know there are protocols involved, you probably can't disclose all of it. But do you get approached by your office and they say, Her Majesty would like to talk to you and you say, look, I'm just a bit busy interviewing various people at the moment. I don't need to be disturbed. How does it work?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they get in touch and let you know that she would like to have a conversation and then obviously you do that and we arranged for that to happen last night, morning her time. But, I mean, she's amazing. Jenny and I got to meet Her Majesty last year at Buckingham Palace. It was a real highlight for Jenny and I, and we had a lovely chat. She's terribly interested in, you know, the daily things of life - your family, how Australians are going. She loves this country. She's been here many times and she regrets the fact that she can no longer visit so many places, including Australia. She was very interested to know how, not just with the COVID-19, very impressed by what's happening here. But she was very interested to ask about what was happening post the bushfires and I could tell her, you know, the responses that are in places there and as well as the drought. You know, she understands drought issues and rural issues really well and she was terribly interested in that. And she was particularly happy to know that the races were still running.
HADLEY: I know. I think she's watching Sky Central every Saturday, hearing from Ron Dufficy and Lizzie Jelfs. Look, I know that you've got to go, but I want to say one thing to you before we go. A few years ago, I had a blue with you, right. And it was a subject of much publicity. I want to apologise. No, no, I want to say it. I want to apologise. I think you've proven since your time, particularly this critical time, you will end up as one of our great prime ministers. I think you have handled yourself with class, dignity and distinction and a level of energy I've rarely seen. So accept my sincere apologies. You're a great prime minister and I appreciate your time today.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Ray, that's very kind and very generous, and I thank you for that. But I'm just very appreciative of the Australian people. I said some weeks ago that we were going to be put to the test and we're measuring up. And to be able to tell the Queen last night that the people of Australia were measuring up was a moment of great pride. So thank you very much, I appreciate that and looking forward to footy coming back on, mate.
HADLEY: You've come a long way from being around the ground with the Continuous Call Team in the Southern Districts’ home ground to where you are now. Thanks for your time, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Good on you Ray, cheers.
HADLEY: All the best to you, thank you. That’s our Prime Minister, we’re in safe hands there, I think. Scott Morrison.
