Interview with Samantha Maiden, news.com.au
6 May 2020
SAMANTHA MAIDEN: Hi there, I’m Sam Maiden, and if you’re with us tonight it’s because you’ve got some burning questions for the Prime Minister, who has very kindly agreed to take some time out of his day and answer them. Good evening, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: G’day Sam, good to be with all of your readers and connecting up tonight. So hopefully I can answer a few of the questions for people. But can I just start off by thanking everybody for the patience and the great efforts they've been making over these last few months, I know it's been pretty frustrating and pretty tough, but we're making our way through and we thank everybody who's just been doing the right thing.
MAIDEN: Yeah. So the big question that, you know, most of our readers wanted asked is when do we get back to some sort of new normal? Are we going to get back to normal life? You've got a National Cabinet meeting on this Friday and some of the restrictions are going to be lifted. So, what can we expect?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't want to pre-judge any of those decisions that the Premiers will make on Friday. And, of course, every one of the states are in charge of what happens in their own states ultimately. But there already have been quite a few changes we've seen to date. I mean, particularly in the western states, in W.A., in South Australia and in the Northern Territory, they've been making some big changes. We've seen just in the last sort of 48 hours, Queensland made some changes on schools. New South Wales made some changes about two people being able to visit other homes so you’re going to see changes happen gradually. They're not all gonna happen at once and they'll continue to happen over the weeks and months ahead.
But until there's a vaccine, then there isn’t the possibility of us getting fully back to normal. But we want to get back to it as close as we possibly can, and that will take a couple of months to get back to that position. But look, I'm hopeful there'll be more restrictions eased as of this Friday and then the states will be able to announce when that will happen. But there's been a lot of good work to try and make sure that the businesses that people would go into would be safe for the workers, obviously, but also for the patrons who would come and the many other places where there's been restrictions up until now. But businesses and people have been very innovative in how they've been dealing with this. And as people have got to understand COVID-19 better, they've got even better at how they can keep themselves and their patrons and their staff safe.
MAIDEN: So Lynette Ridden, one of our readers is on Facebook. She was coming at it from the other side. She was saying, I'm really worried that we're going to loosen this up too fast, and we could see a second wave or third wave. How do you reassure those people that are worried that you're moving too fast?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, when we put all these restrictions in place about six weeks ago or thereabouts, I mean, it was a very different time, it was a very different place I know it was only six weeks ago. But since then, we've been able to triple our ICU capacity. Since then, we've been able to get access to all the testing equipment we need so we can stay on top of any outbreaks and we can move quickly where things occur in particular areas. Since then, we've been able to get the COVIDsafe app, of course, up and running and there's over 5 million Australians who have downloaded that. And that keeps individuals safe. I mean, people often say, well, why should I do this? Well the number one reason is it keeps you safe. It lets you know when you've been in contact with someone who may have Coronavirus, and then that means you can take decisions both for you to get treatment and as well as keeping your family safe. So the COVIDsafe app helps you and your family first and foremost. And the more people who do it, the more that we can track down. When we're going back to more normal arrangements, we can fight against the virus and protect it. So there's a lot more protections in place today than there were 6 weeks ago. And that's why we had to move so quick back then to shut so many things down. But now that we've got these protections in place, that means we can actually operate at a much higher level than we could before. And for the vast majority of people who contract the coronavirus, of course, it's a fairly mild illness. But of course, for those who have other frailties or comorbidities as they're known, then they're obviously at more risk. And that's why we've been doing all the things we've been doing to prevent people who are particularly at risk falling victim to this to this virus.
MAIDEN: Alright. School closures has been a massive issue from day one. And, you know, I think parents are really still quite divided over this. We had one parent, Kelly Bell, write in to say, why risk it? You know, why? Why should you open schools if I can't have a birthday party for my kids?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's two things here. The first thing is, is it always has been the medical advice right from the outset that children have been far less susceptible to this than they have been to normal flus. And I think one of the reasons people were hesitant at first is they thought the virus would work the same way as a cold or a flu would. And it turns out the medical research, and the experience is that's just not the case. And so children have always been at a much lower level of risk, they’re only about 2 percent of cases. That’s not to say that a child doesn't get it, but it's in a very rare set of cases and their experience with the virus is a very, very mild one compared to those at a more vulnerable age, particularly those who are elderly. So that has always been the medical advice. And I can understand while there was uncertainties in people's minds about this early, why they might have been concerned about their children going to school. And I think that drove some of the earlier discussion we saw. But it's only been proved week after week after week. And that's why you see Queensland now opening up schools. And I mean South Australia and Western Australia, they've got school attendances up over 70 per cent and that's only going to continue to climb. And that's been happening for a while now. And so what's been happening in schools has always been quite safe.
The issue in reopening schools has been to make the place safer for teachers. Now they've been more at risk in the staff room, catching it from each other than they have certainly in the classroom. Now, the second point you make though Sam and I think this is totally fair enough, the consistency that you try and get across all these different controls sometimes can be very difficult. And so the birthday party thing is a good example. Now, the reason that the Premiers decided to have that arrangement in place is because it would be confusing to say, ‘oh, you can have five kids around, but you can't have five adults’, and that would confuse the whole message about people staying at home and not going to other people's places. So in many cases, the National Cabinet has tried to keep it as simple as possible. Now it can't always work. It's not always 100 per cent consistent. We're dealing with a very complex situation and we try and keep it simple. Now, on schools, I admit there's been some confusion there, but I can tell you absolutely that right from the get go, the chief medical officer and the medical expert panel has been very clear that children, you're safe, your kids, to go to school. And I'm looking forward to it, my kids to be back at school on Monday.
MAIDEN: Right, okay. So how have you found home schooling, you know, you've obviously been doing that in Canberra, I imagine that Jenny may have been taking the [inaudible] yourself, but what's the information that you've been hearing about how that's been going and how do your kids feel about going back to school? They might like to stay in beautiful Canberra?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, my youngest actually does like staying in Canberra and it's nice to have her with me and that will be the sad part, is that they'll go back to Sydney and of course I'll be here and we'll be separated again. But that's a big part of this job. And we've always understood that. For my younger daughter, and then she's in K-6, so it's been a lot harder for them, I think with online learning. That hasn't worked, I mean, it's always best to have children learning in the classroom. That's the expert educationalist research. And that's I don’t think disputed, but for K-6 I think it's even harder for that to work online. And so I'm looking forward to her particularly being able to go back and they’re, going back five days a week at the school they attend. My oldest daughter, she's in year 7 and she's been doing all right on the online learning. And she's you know quite a disciplined, studious sort of type. And she's been doing it and Jen’s been supporting them both. But it is a big task, I think, for parents. Now, I haven't been there and Jen's been carrying the load like she always does, but it has, I think, put a lot of pressure on parents to be that. And I've liked how teachers have said to parents, look, don't beat yourselves up. I mean, teaching kids is hard. And, you know, you just got to keep doing your best. And I think that's what parents have been trying to do. But for those who have had to being working at home and sort of overseeing their kids learning at home, I think that's been a real problem. I think that's been hard on those parents. It's not the best for the kid’s education, and it's also not helping them do their job. So that's why that's good to see the schools opening up again.
MAIDEN: Yes. And perhaps at some point that will also happen in Canberra, that would be very calming for me. But one of our readers, a question in this space. She basically said, well, you’re calling for schools to open, why don’t you open Parliament? When’s Parliament going to go back to normal?
PRIME MINISTER: It’ll be open next week. I mean, we weren’t due to meet till next week anyway. So we've gone back in the week that we that we were actually scheduled to go back in. And we've actually had a couple of sitting days since this all started many months ago. So we'll be back here and we're coming back with our usual parliamentary sitting and we'll deal with the legislation that provides the protection for the COVIDsafe app. Don’t forget to download the app. But that law is already, its belts and braces. We've already got the biosecurity laws that are providing those protections and then we'll pass the other laws on the COVIDsafe app and that will go through next week. But there'll be many other bills we're dealing with next week. And so we're getting things back to normal.
MAIDEN: Okay. A couple of quick questions of things that have come up today and we'll get back to COVID. It’s been a bit of a kerfuffle about that seat Eden-Monaro it’s obviously quite a famous seat, and Australian bellwether seat. We had people putting up their hands, putting their hands down, people dropping out. And then tonight, there's been a report that Teena McQueen is pushing for Tony Abbott to put his hand up in Eden Monaro. Can you imagine Tony Abbott coming back to parliament in the seat of Eden Monaro at all?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I said when Mike Kelly said he was going to retire, and I wish I wish Mike and his wife all the best. Mike served in uniform. He served in the parliament. He's a good guy. And I thank him for all his tremendous service. And I'm sure his local community feel the same way. I said the Liberal Party is running, we’ve opened nominations. Some people have expressed interest and then others have said they know they're not going to go ahead. Nominations close on Friday. There'll be a preselection. There'll be a candidate. That's the way things run. And that's how I anticipate they will run.
MAIDEN: Do you imagine Tony Abbott might be interested in coming back?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't believe he is.
MAIDEN: Okay. So back to some other issues that come up today. Just in relation to the Ruby Princess, you said that you were quite upset to see that senior epidemiologist in tears on the stand, saying that things could be different, other people said that maybe the questioning from Bret Walker SC went a bit over the line, other people said you shouldn’t really be sticking your oar in one of those commissions of inquiry. Why did you feel the need to step in and defend those health officials?
PRIME MINISTER: Every single day for months now, I mean, you’ve got to remember the chief medical officer and all his team have been meeting daily since the 22nd of January. They've been working incredibly hard. And that's that's what I've seen my health officials doing that here. And I know that's the same thing up in New South Wales and all around the country. They've been doing a great job. Now, I made it really clear in my comments today, I'm not looking to compromise in any way, shape or form and nor did I the integrity or independence of the royal commission, it needs to do its job. I respect it's what it needs to do. But what we saw there today, what we saw there was a public health official just trying to do her best. And she was there and put in that situation. And the subject of, I think, quite some aggressive questioning. And she broke down. And I think there are many health officials, many people out there just doing their best and they could be working in supermarkets, they could be working as nurses, they could be working as paramedics, they could be working as teachers. They can, they're all just doing their best. This is a really hard time. And I just wanted to express my empathy with her and to thank all of those people out there just doing their best. Give them a go. I mean, not everybody is going to get every call right, every single time. And the expectation that they might, I think, is very unrealistic. And so I think we've got to support people at this time. And sure, we’ve got to find out what happened there. It's a very serious issue. I don't doubt that at all. And so the inquiry is underway. But how you do things sometimes is very important, at all times. And I just hope that the royal commissioner would would reflect on that line that he took.
MAIDEN: Fair enough. Mother's Day is obviously coming up this weekend, and a lot of people are worried about whether they can visit their mums or their grandmas, particularly if they're in vulnerable, you know, age groups. What's your advice on that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well to follow the medical advice and to follow the rules that are in place in each state and territory. And look, we can put these rules in place and have, but at the end of the day, everyone's just got to exercise good common sense judgement. No one wants to see, particularly if they've got an elderly parent who they might be going to visit or a grandmother or something like that, you know, just exercise the proper care. That's that's what we're talking about. And I know it'll be really hard to be separated from your nan or and and your kids are going to want to see them. And I think parents can work out responsible ways that they can ensure that they can have that connection. And what is always a very important day to say thanks to mums, I'll be doing that just like my kids will be. And it's an important day for families, but it's gonna be different this year, like Anzac Day. You know, we thought we, when at Anzac Day, there wouldn't be the marches, there wouldn't be the large services. But, you know, we came up with a way to do it where people did feel connected and we could honor our ANZACS and it could still be a special day. And I have no doubt that Australians will find the same way because, you know, mums are just as spectacular and awesome and wonderful. And so I'm sure they will elicit the same innovation and affection from their kids that happens every year. They'll just find a different way to do it. So that's our task. Australia, let's be the most innovative in celebrating our wonderful mums this Sunday.
MAIDEN: You must have been pretty worried about two of the mums in your life because, you know, during the first phase of this period, you've had your mum and Jenny's mum come and stay with you. Tell me a little bit about why you decided to do that or why you wanted to get them to come together?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, firstly, they were on their own and we were in a position where they could stay with us. And of course, my mum lost my father earlier this year and she was living in a part of Sydney where she would have been quite isolated. My brother is a frontline health worker and they're very busy doing their job. And he's in Sydney, I'm here, and so for either of us, it would be very difficult to help and support my mum when she was in Sydney. And so we're in a position where she could come and stay with us. Now, the girls have loved having their mamma around, just as they’ve enjoyed having their nana around, which is Jenny’s mum. And so it was a place where they could be safe, where they could be together and be supported and that was done healthily and safely. And and so it's been great to have them with us. So we're really pleased to have that. So it's just me and Buddy the dog who are the only males in the house at the moment. So we'll be there celebrating Mother's Day on Sunday with the girls. It'll be a special one, but it'll be different because we won't have the rest of the family around.
MAIDEN: I feel like I did see a beer in the vicinity of that table, so hope you’re able to share a beer with the family dog on any appropriate juncture. Look, another question from a reader on playgrounds, [inaudible] if kids go to day care and back to school, can you please reopen playgrounds? Is that something that will be discussed on Friday?
PRIME MINISTER: It's something I know the medical expert panel is working through. This was a difficult decision when it was made some weeks back. I mean, we sort of wanted to keep them open, but the problem was how they were cleaned all the time. And it's also a place where parents congregate. So particularly at the time the decision was taken, we were trying to discourage people clumping together in groups and so when you take the kids to playground, you're often sitting there having a coffee and you’re catching up with other mums and fathers or others and that's what you do. And so that wasn't seen as a safe way or a thing where people might congregate in that way, particularly early on. Now, in schools, obviously, there's playgrounds, but in a school, the medical expert panel felt you could have greater confidence of the cleaning down of all the surfaces and all of those things that could be done in a school. But for local governments to be able to do that at every single play equipment all across the country, there was just deemed to be too high a risk. But look, I think it's quite possible in the not too near future that that might be able to be addressed and I'm sure the kids will be happy to get back on the monkey bars.
MAIDEN: Ok and if they get back on the monkey bars, hopefully they spend less time on Tik Tok. I’m not too familiar with Tik Tok.
PRIME MINISTER: Neither am I.
MAIDEN: Your creative responses to what I describe as border control, you do a lot of border control at press conferences, you know, either side [inaudible] circumstances in which the question is answered. And this has come in for some, you know, creativity on Tik Tok. We might not have a look at what one person has done with your border control in press conferences.
RECORDING: Andrew, Andrew, I'm sorry, you've had several questions- Andrew, I'm sorry, Andrew. I know, but you don't run the press conference OK? So I'm going go to other questions of members of the group. Katharine hasn't had a question. I'm happy to return to you. But let's just keep it simple, Andrew. Katharine?
PRIME MINISTER: I have seen that one, it's pretty good. That music has been used on a few others, people have told me. So anyway, I'm glad people are enjoying those press conferences. I mean, not many people watched press conferences, as you know, Sam, and I think people have been surprised at some of the interaction that regularly quite occurs between politicians and journalists at these pressers. And I think they've found that all a bit fascinating. But if it's entertained people, you know, happy to be doing that.
MAIDEN: Well, the nation thanks you for service in that regard. Look, in relation to a more serious matter, you've obviously spent a lot of time on the phone to world leaders. I imagine you’d be having a lot more conversations than you usually would on a lot more regular basis. When you've been on the phone to Boris Johnson or Donald Trump, have any of them never said to you, how did you do it? How did Australia flatten the curve?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're all trying to learn from each other. I mean, I had a very interesting chat with President Moon from South Korea a few weeks back and we learned a lot from them. And the same with Prime Minister Abe up in Japan. But I was talking to Boris the other night, and it's great to see him back and sounding so well. We were very, very worried we were going to lose Boris but he's back and he's full of beans, I can assure you from the chat we had the other night and he was very much asking that exact question. And I was able to take him through what we've done on the border shut down and then what we've done on the tracing and what we've done on the testing programs that we had in place and on ventilators and the restrictions we've put in place, so just talking through that. There's a lot of the common elements of how you deal with this are quite clear and this is why I said there's those three things we've got to have. We've got to have the comprehensive testing and we really are hitting that mark now. We've got to have what I call the industrialisation of those health workers there, those detectives that are tracking down every single case. And that's what the COVIDsafe app does. It helps those people to be able to find out whether you've been in contact with someone who has contracted the coronavirus. And, you know, hours count, minutes count, days count and to be able to do that effectively is really important. And the third one is to be able to have a localised response where there is an outbreak. Now, we've seen that on a number of occasions now and the responses, you know, there's one going on in Melbourne at the moment with the meatworks there. There was the north west Tasmania and we’ve had that awful situation out at Newmarch with the aged care facility. But let me just say this on aged care, if it's alright, Sam.
I mean, what's happening in Newmarch is just so hard for all the families and the communication, you know, as we've worked hard with the facility to get that up scratch. And I know these frustrations, but, you know, there's 2700 aged care facilities in Australia and only around 23 of those have had any sort of issues when it comes to the coronavirus and only a couple have actually had the more serious outbreaks that we've seen out at Newmarch. Melissa McIntosh and Stuart Ayers have done a great job working with the local community there. But I think we've got to keep that in perspective and when I was talking to Boris the other night, we were talking about aged care. Now, in the UK, for aged care, it's just been... I mean, there was a long period of time where they weren't even counting those who sadly passed away in aged care facilities and sort of gives you an idea of how serious it was. But it hasn't just been Boris. I had the great privilege and thrill to speak to the Queen the other night and she was asking the same questions and she's so pleased that down under, we're doing well.
MAIDEN: So what did you tell her? I mean, did you say that it was to do with the border controls?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, she was very interested.
MAIDEN: Just on border controls in relation to the US, some people said early on that you should have closed the borders earlier in terms of the United States and that there was a bit of argy bargy in National Cabinet about that.
PRIME MINISTER: No, there wasn't, actually. The first border that we shut down was with mainland China, or Wuhan first and Hubei Province, but then mainland China. And what that meant was we were able to protect against the first big wave out of China. Now that wave went everywhere else, it certainly went to the United States, ultimately, or it may have already been transmitted there before their border lockdown. And it certainly went into Europe and right across the UK. So we got hit then by the second wave, but were able to move on it very quickly then through all the restrictions which ensured that we were able to get back to where we are right now. So we have had very effective travel restrictions on the way out and on the way in. But then we've backed that up with the comprehensive testing and with the tracing which has been done manually and will now with the with the tracing app, with the COVIDsafe app, that that will mean that those health workers who were the only people who have access to that information, will be able to track down people who have been exposed to the coronavirus and be able to isolate them. See this is - and I know I’m focusing a lot on the app, but it is really important - in the same way we were able to be so effective when people came from overseas and they went into the hotel for 14 days. That meant we ensured that anyone who potentially had the virus was isolated. Now, when the virus is in the community, you just can't do that. So you need to know who's been exposed to it and isolate them. Now, the only way we can do that really quickly is if we get enough people on the COVIDsafe app. So that's what it's for. It's only for one job, just one job. That's it.
MAIDEN: And just on the app, I mean, do you think there's any chance the US President Donald Trump is interested in it? Has he told you he is? And before you answer that question though, I just want to show you a clip of something that he said during this debate that created a lot of controversy. This is what he had to say about possible COVID cures.
RECORDING: Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. As you see, it gets on the lungs and does a tremendous number of harm. So it would be interesting to check that so that you don't have to use medical doctors. But it sounds interesting to me.
MAIDEN: What was your honest reaction to that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the President has already made his explanation of those comments, Sam, and I don’t propose to go over them and we've been working with all countries. I mean, you asked me before about who's shown an interest in what we've done with the COVIDsafe app. I've had those discussions with Prime Minister Trudeau. I've had them, of course, with Boris the other night and I was talking to Bibi Netanyahu a little while back about this same thing. And we've had a lot more success, they tried one there, but then there were some issues with the legislation. Jacinda Ardern and I have spoken about it many times and it all came from a conversation I had with Prime Minister Lee a while back and we asked him if he could give us access to the code that they'd been using and we improved on that and now we are where we are, where I think we're on track, but we've got a bit more of a way to go. But I'm very pleased with the response from Australians. We just need a few more so keep downloading the COVIDsafe app.
MAIDEN: Hopefully they will. In relation to a few things if we start where we began about these questions. We have a question from Kerry Porter, “Why do you think workers in Coles, Woolies and Bunnings have been in contact with everyone, we haven’t seen that many cases?” That’s kind of interesting. And also, Brett Anderson had a very important question. Bunnings, when will they reopen the sausage sizzle? It is an essential service.
PRIME MINISTER: I like that. Look, there obviously will be cases in a whole bunch of workplaces and when we get to back to what I call a COVID, sort of, safe Australia, which is what we're aiming to get back to with a lot of the restrictions that are able to be pared away, there will still be cases. I mean, it won't be eradicated and there will still be outbreaks and the goal is not to bring it down to zero. That's not a practical expectation. It is to ensure that we can keep on top of it, that where there are outbreaks, we can shut them down, that where people who contract it, we can isolate them and we can ensure that the health system remains strong in the position to be able to respond. That way, we can keep the economy open and we can stay on top of the coronavirus.
So, why hasn’t there been more retail shops and so on? Well, I haven't seen the stats specifically on that. But what I would say is that employers in places like this have put in place social distancing and procedures to keep their patrons safe. And that's where I've seen businesses do amazing things to adapt to this new environment and we'll see them adapt more so into the future. I mean, I suspect, Sam, on the other side of all this, maybe there'll be some things that people take out of it in terms of how we work differently or shop differently in the future, even how we meet together. As you said, I've had so many meetings over the last six weeks and with not only with my own cabinet team but with others. And the telepresence facility facilities we've got have been really effective and we've probably had more connection and got through a lot more through that way than we might have ordinarily done if we'd all been meeting in person. So there will be some takeaways from this, but there'll be some things we'll be looking forward to again and a Bunnings sausage sizzle is certainly going to be on my list.
MAIDEN: Magnificent. We promised you, Prime Minister, that we'd let you go at 7.29pm. It is now 7.29pm so thank you very much for joining us here at news.com and listening to some of our readers’ questions and answering them. We appreciate it and happy Mother's Day.
PRIME MINISTER: Happy Mother's Day to you, too, Sam and everyone out there on Ozark, I will not spoil the ending for you.
MAIDEN: Magnificent, all right, thanks a lot. Have a great night.
PRIME MINISTER: Cheers.
